Was Teddy Roosevelt forewarned of Pearl Harbor?

[Ryan Stewart]

Pearl Harbor was the rear base lol, and it is the last base you have before the USA. Those friggin Japs hit us right in the Daddy sacks.

It was US soil. It was rear echelon, which is why it wasnt actively guarded. That is why it was a shock they went that far and attacked it.

If it was a forward operating base how many times was it engaged once our military was active on that front?

[der affe]

If we are really wanted those ships to get sunk we would have just posted them up in Manilla Bay and saved the Japs the trouble of sailing half way across the Pacific. Even if you talk about how much FDR wanted into the war, why didn't he declare war on Germany? Three days after we declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy declared war on us, pulling us into WWII proper.

because there were LOTS of German/Italian AMERICANS in the US, they looked pretty much like normal Americans. Japanese looked physically different. times were different, and that could effect FDR's reelection hopes by declairing war on a non descript group of people.

yes, we knew that war was comming at some point. i personally think that there was some sort of warning about the comming attack on Pearl. how creditable the info was, i can't say.

remember, Churchill was begging the US to enter the war after France fell to Germany. at that point in time it was England against Europe, Russia was still a member of the AXIS powers, so they were standing all alone.

of course Germany/Italy declared war againt the US after we declared war with Japan, they were AXIS allies.

[E30Kaiser]

because there were LOTS of German/Italian AMERICANS in the US, they looked pretty much like normal Americans. Japanese looked physically different. times were different, and that could effect FDR's reelection hopes by declairing war on a non descript group of people.

yes, we knew that war was comming at some point. i personally think that there was some sort of warning about the comming attack on Pearl. how creditable the info was, i can't say.

remember, Churchill was begging the US to enter the war after France fell to Germany. at that point in time it was England against Europe, Russia was still a member of the AXIS powers, so they were standing all alone.

of course Germany/Italy declared war againt the US after we declared war with Japan, they were AXIS allies.

That last statement makes sense usually but to me Germany had no obligation to Japan to do that after Operation Barbarossa and the lack of a Japanese Declaration of War on the USSR.

[Farbin Kaiber]

farbin: do you work for a living? who pays you to play on r3v all day.

Answer.

I have an excuse - I'm STILL unemployed.

[mar1t1me]

You cant just scramble a whole fucking fleet from a rear base because something thinks they saw a goat fuck in the west pacific.

If war were thought imminent, long range recon flights could have easily spotted the Japanese fleet. Ships are very easy to spot, even at high altitude-their wake turbulence is many times longer than the ship.

We apparently can't scare up any fighters when 4 planes turn off their transponders either....even after a couple of them hit their targets.....

BTW, radar can still "see" a plane even if its transponder is off, so the excuse "we couldn't find them" is baseless.....

History says there was plenty of warning before the Japanese attacked-all of it unheeded.

[Eric]

My grandfather was in the Philippines at the start of the war, and was taken captured, put through the Bataan Death March, and sent on the Hellships back to Tokyo for the rest of the war. So if I had any reason to think FDR planned this all, I would be pretty pissed, instead I am just pissed at MacArthur.

Your grandfather is a badass! If he is still around, please tell him from one service member to another, I salute him!

[Ryan Stewart]

If war were thought imminent, long range recon flights could have easily spotted the Japanese fleet. Ships are very easy to spot, even at high altitude-their wake turbulence is many times longer than the ship.

We apparently can't scare up any fighters when 4 planes turn off their transponders either....even after a couple of them hit their targets.....

BTW, radar can still "see" a plane even if its transponder is off, so the excuse "we couldn't find them" is baseless.....

History says there was plenty of warning before the Japanese attacked-all of it unheeded.

All of your statements are baseless. Guess what, the ocean is fucking big. Shit, with that french plane that went down they fucking KNEW where it crashed and still couldnt find shit in 2009. Good luck finding motherfuckers hiding from you in an even bigger ocean.

Yes, radar can see a plane, if its in line of sight. If you come in 40 feet off of the ground you likely arent in line-of-sight. Have you ever heard the term, "flying under the radar?" Someone didnt pull that out of their ass.

[dvs909]

i think that FDR knew, because all the carriers and newer battleships were shipped out of the harbor a week or two before the attack. All the ships that were bombed were old out dated models, perfect excuse to send US to the battlefront. my opinion is basicly the same for 9/11.

your a idiot, the battleships werent old or outdated. thats why they raised the fuckers from the mud of pearl harbor to send tojo to hell.

[mar1t1me]

All of your statements are baseless.

Are they?

Guess what, the ocean is fucking big. Shit, with that french plane that went down they fucking KNEW where it crashed and still couldnt find shit in 2009. Good luck finding motherfuckers hiding from you in an even bigger ocean.

Try this on:

There is but one threat axis if you expect to be attacked from Japan. Those weren't nuc boats! Fuel constraints dictate a particular approach. A plane crash leaves a very small footprint. An armada can be miles wide. You cannot hide surface ships, especially big ones moving, from aircraft. Period. You'll just need to trust me on this. I have some experience in that field.

Yes, radar can see a plane, if its in line of sight. If you come in 40 feet off of the ground you likely arent in line-of-sight. Have you ever heard the term, "flying under the radar?" Someone didnt pull that out of their ass.

That was a reference to 9/11 incompetence, not Pearl Harbor.

[E30Kaiser]

Try this on:

There is but one threat axis if you expect to be attacked from Japan. Those weren't nuc boats! Fuel constraints dictate a particular approach. A plane crash leaves a very small footprint. An armada can be miles wide. You cannot hide surface ships, especially big ones moving, from aircraft. Period. You'll just need to trust me on this. I have some experience in that field.

The Japanese Fleet stayed away from shipping channels to avoid being spotted, as well as launched their planes from extreme range. If you don't even know the range of their planes you don't know what distance you should be looking for this fleet, and the Zero had a much longer range than was predicted capable of fighter aircraft, roughly double that of the Wildcat, our best naval fighter for the beginning of the war.(I think the Val was their shortest ranged aircraft in the raid which still had a longer range than most of our planes and wasn't expected to loiter over the target past dropping their bombs.)

Also Pearl Harbor didn't really have any radar except for the test station that picked up the incoming planes, which was only there for training purposes and wasn't even supposed to be running at that time, so it was assumed to be unreliable. The Japs lucked out and were also approaching from nearly the same vector as the incoming flight of B-17s that were expected that day. The Japs sent scout planes before the attack and we still didn't know there was a fleet there so that shows just how unprepared and caught by surprise Pearl was.

[Ryan Stewart]

Here is an idea, if "teddy" let it happen with the intent of draggin the US into the war, prove it.

It should be easy. Its been over 50 fucking years. Any information that is going to be available is out, anyone who was keeping a secret to keep themselves from being killed by the CIA is dead. There is nobody who benefits from keeping this conspiracy alive.

Its just like JFK, people can make baseless arguments all of the time and when you call them it an idiot its only because you arent "open minded." Find a memo in the archives. Everything has been declassified. Something other than "it was our primary base" (which is odd since we didnt have hostilites that it would be considered a front line) and the "they should have known."

[E30Kaiser]

Your grandfather is a badass! If he is still around, please tell him from one service member to another, I salute him!

Sadly he died two decades ago, after serving in SAC after the war for many years, and finally retiring. I am sure he would have been happy to hear that though.

[der affe]

That last statement makes sense usually but to me Germany had no obligation to Japan to do that after Operation Barbarossa and the lack of a Japanese Declaration of War on the USSR.

correct me if i am wrong ( am not at home to check my facts) but pearl predated the russian invasion. therefore japan not declairing war on russia would not factor into the decision to continue honoring the allience with japan by germany and italy.

as far as germany's obligation to honor the treaty, i suggest that you do a little reading on the high command of the 3rd reich and the decision making processes. you would be supprised that ANYTHING was accomplished. i will look at home and suggest some reading if you would like.

yep, Barbraossa started June 22 1941, there by predating Pearl by 6 months.

[E30Kaiser]

correct me if i am wrong ( am not at home to check my facts) but pearl predated the russian invasion. therefore japan not declairing war on russia would not factor into the decision to continue honoring the allience with japan by germany and italy.

as far as germany's obligation to honor the treaty, i suggest that you do a little reading on the high command of the 3rd reich and the decision making processes. you would be supprised that ANYTHING was accomplished. i will look at home and suggest some reading if you would like.

yep, Barbraossa started June 22 1941, there by predating Pearl by 6 months.

Yeah your last bit is correct, June 22, 1941 is the date Von Ribbentrop delivered against the USSR and Barbarossa kicked off thus happening before Pearl. I don't pretend to know or even attempt to know what Hitler thought, but the whole going to war with the USA seems stupid to me. Hitler supposedly didn't even want war with the Anglo's then he goes and does that. I think if you want to say anyone wanted to sabotage their own country, Hitler is probably number 1, with Stalin being a close number 2 with the whole officer purge and the like.

I play a lot of WWII strategy games like Hearts of Iron though so I guess I sometimes expect too much of national leaders hahaha. Seems like it would have been extremely easy to win the war as Germany as long as you keep the USA out of the war for as long as possible, and knock off Britain before going to war with Russia, thus cutting off the Murmansk route as well as making the conquest of the Middle East much easier, which would also make the conquest of the Caucasus much easier and the USSR as a whole after Baku falls, their main source of domestic oil.

[der affe]

Hitler had always intended to attack Russia, both for it's rich agricultural land, the Cuacus' oil fields, and it's great expanses of land. there were already people of German decent or "leinage" living on the western edges of Russia. Germany had already reached and conquered France and the only other way to expand was into Russia.

in Hitler's second book he outlines his plans for the US after dominating Europe. both of the books Hitler wrote are very hard to read and poorly written, other than being interesting from a historical standpoint, i would say don't bother.

here are a few books if you are intrerested in the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Order-Deaths-H.../dp/0141390123 FUCKING overload in infomation in the begining 1/2 of the book, but it all ties together in the end and gives you a better understanding of how and why things happened the way they did.

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Third-R...7768820&sr=1-1 LONG read, but written by an insider. frank and pretty much unslanted. Speer was also the ONLY person at the Nuremburg trial to plead guilty.

for some interesting history on some of the people that may be comming up in your stratagy games
http://www.amazon.com/Grenadiers-Gen...7769053&sr=1-1 Kurt "panzer" Meyer

http://www.amazon.com/Panzer-Command...7769278&sr=1-1 Col Hans Von Luck

http://www.amazon.com/Panzer-Command...7769278&sr=1-1 Otto Carius

i loaned all 3 of these to my uncle who was a Sherman tank comander and fought against all 3 of these people or their units, while in Europe. he liked them so much, he went and bought his own copies to re-read.