With the latest Intelligent Design battle going on in my home state...

[SebSter]

Dude, they have you snowed if you think this is not all about trying to get Religious creationism into the schools. Look at who is behind it.

Well thats the problem. The people trying to promote it are religiously motivated.


But the actual scientists who came up wtih the concept of "intelligent design" have no affiliation with religious groups or 'creationism'.

[Dave]

But the actual "scientists" who came up wtih the concept of "intelligent design" have no affiliation with religious groups or 'creationism'.

[joshh]

This is a great topic.
Nothing personal but there really is no deep evidence that Jesus or that God exist. The bible is a book humans made.
That's not really very important because if you are a believer that's all that matters period. Religion is a personal thing not a mass production like it's shown in a lot of religions.

I don't understand why there can't be evolution and still teach ID?? What's the big deal. Evolution is a fact. Human evolution is still up for grabs because it takes so long for evolution to progress. I believe in it but why can't there be both?? The problem is what ID are you going to teach kids???? Theres so many religions it's crazy....so leave religion to people as a personal belief and not force it on them.

Oh and to make it clear, I don't believe in "god" the way your average Christian does. I believe theres a higher power one way or another. But not a guy controlling your every move.

[benDASHDASH]

[uflnuceng]

The two things (evolution and intelligent design) discuss different topics altogether.

Evolution only deals with slow progression over time. Evolution cannot explain how DNA was generated, or the formation of protein strands. It cannot explain how the first single celled organisms originated.


And don't let intelligent design get mixed in with religion. The two topics could not be further from eachother. Intelligent design simply points out that life could not have spontaneously generated by accident on Earth. Where that simple fact leads your beliefs is completely up to you.



Its interesting shit, they should teach it in schools along with evolution.. and along with religions (of all over the world) too. The more knowledge people have the more they can base their beliefs solidly rather than on faith and ignorance.

Actually, studies have shown that in the ancient primordial pools that lightenging + amino acids = amino acid chains, which can lead to RNA, which can lead to DNA. A lot of this stuff just happened by chance. The probability of it happening naturally isn't zero, but its not very high either.

Nature happened by chance, human beings happened by chance, Intelligent Design is Creationism through the back door. Those are all facts.

I have an immense faith in a powerful being, but I think he had little or nothing to do with the development of the human race, or any other biological life form. You can't prove me wrong with creationism because that is all faith based, I at least have science on my side.

peace out
Jared

[Digitalwave]

If you believe in a supreme being, but that being had nothing to do with creation, what is that being's role?

[Jarvis]

I don't really want to get into the whole ID vs. evolution debate. It is ridiculous that there even is a debate, but anyways...

Fine. Any little backwards-ass town can teach ID in their schools if they want - but only if it's an elective. Give the kids the option of learning the theory of evolution, OR ID theory. Don't make the kids learn both.

All those intense christians can learn about ID and become a priest or preacher or whatever when they grow up.

All the kids that choose to learn about evolution can become scientists and engineers and doctors (aka the people who are responsible for improving the way we live).

[Digitalwave]

There are Christians that are scientists too you know.

[Jarvis]

There are Christians that are scientists too you know.

I mean the crazy dedicated ones that somehow relate everything that happens to them with their religion.

[uflnuceng]

If you believe in a supreme being, but that being had nothing to do with creation, what is that being's role?

Looking after my soul... inspiring the guy that created the internal combustion engine... etc. When I look up into the sky or even a tree blowing in the wind I can't help but feel absolutely certain that there is something greater than all of us combined out there, but to say that DNA is so complex that god had to will it to happen is bullshit. Scientific experiments have shown that amino acid chains such as RNA can happen by chance if you mix the right pools of protein and zap them with an electric current (i.e. lightening).

We all watch reality tv, just seeing what might happened in an unscripted atmosphere... whose to say God isn't the biggest reality TV addict of them all.

[SebSter]

uflnuceng - I think your argument is based on a flawed assumption. Show me one scientific study that was published and is accepted by the scientific community, that confirms that mixing random particles of protein and hitting them with an electric current will result in a living cell. (Or even functioning DNA). As far as I know, not one scientist has been able to produce such an experiment, and Ive heard of estimates for the probability of that happening in the 1 to 1x10^1xx (which is an unimaginably high number, higher than even the number of individual particles in the known universe).

[uflnuceng]

uflnuceng - I think your argument is based on a flawed assumption. Show me one scientific study that was published and is accepted by the scientific community, that confirms that mixing random particles of protein and hitting them with an electric current will result in a living cell. (Or even functioning DNA). As far as I know, not one scientist has been able to produce such an experiment, and Ive heard of estimates for the probability of that happening in the 1 to 1x10^1xx (which is an unimaginably high number, higher than even the number of individual particles in the known universe).

Seb... there are so many different things that we don't know and I am more than willing to admit that... but Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory, and a "scientific theory" is not a "theory" in the conventional sense. It is a layout of accepted facts as we now know it. Gravity is a scientific theory... the composition of matter are atomic and molecular scientific theories... the earth being round and not flat is a scientific theory based on observed facts... same regarding the earth revolving around the sun. Intelligent design is wholey based on using religious faith to explain something that most people don't understand. People understand just enough about evolution to make it dangerous. They can talk in a conversation using big words that make it sound like they know what they are talking about but they don't.

There are numerous places in this universe where the building blocks of life can form. Building life from star-stuff is possible... and the fact that the possibility exists, even if 1:1x10^1XX which is a rediculously high number, means that the chances are still greater than 0. I admit I was wrong paraphrasing how scientist did their experiments and created simple precursors for amino acids, which still isn't life, there is evidence like the link I provided above that there are possibilities for life to start all on its own. There is physical evidence to it... amino acids found on meteors, experiments on radiation bombarding things you might find in a dust cloud in space.

Intelligent design is a farse... it is absolutely creationism trying to get in through the back door because people think they understand the various scientific theories that govern our daily lives when they acutally don't. All of these things do not negate the existance or power of a supreme being, it just puts limitations on what he may have done and when. Since we have evidence, even if only slight at the moment, that life can start without the direct involvment from a God, we must surmise that life started without God's involvement. That does not mean you or I are not important in God's eyes.

[E30 Wagen]

okay, i'm just going to see if i can let it all out:

A while ago, a very famous athiest (the name escapes me) decided that there must be a higher being from which we all came. He 'converted' after realizing just how impossibly complex we are as organisms and that our existance by evolution could in now way have happened by 'chance.' I'm pretty sure this guy was indeed a scientist and spent many hours examining our biology, trying to prove there was no god or higher being. Many other people have also tried to prove that a god does not exist and have realized they could not (except for Homer Simpson when he got the crayon removed from his brain).

I believe that there is nothing to worship (key word is 'worship,' not 'nothing'). Believing that you will be eternally rewarded by some ultimate, unseen, all knowing master of the universe by praying or attending church services and reading the Bible is simply crazy to me. As some have said, and i agree, religion is like a placebo. Religious people say they feel better when they pray, or share their religion with others, that they can feel 'the life of God' in them. They have the idea of faith pounded into them, that they must submit, they must be humble, they must exist only by that religous code, and by doing so they are eternally rewarded, and so on. My dad often listens to christian radio and it simply blows me away. It's like the hosts are on a drugs! It is like they have no mind of their own! They are completely consumed by this path of religious faith, and they are totally ecstatic with this idea of God being inside them controlling their destiny! They know nothing else, and they love it!

I don't mean to attack Christianity, but that doctrine just did not contribute any meaning to my life whatsoever. I can't even begin to tell...

I have never read the entire Bible so i am unable to discuss anything there. Except i think it's interesting how every religion seems to have their own Bible or set of rules to refer to. That's the interesting word: rules. I think athiests hate rules, and that organizations scare them. Having faith is like a rule. Following the rule means eternal salvation. Breaking the rule means eternal damnation. Is this meant to scare us, to keep us coming back to church to be reminded of the rules? I think most athiests argue this. Another interesting word though: fear.

more interesting words: infinite, infinity, eternal, very long time... etc. Most religions believe in the infinite knowledge of god, that the span of god is infinite... Why is this preached? What is the purpose in it? To put us in awe of God? Okay then, that makes sense...

What's been on my mind lately is "was our brain designed with the ability to discover a higher being?" Is it even in our capacity to recognize one when we've found it?

I think it's okay to teach kids anything that can be thought about because it increases the power of the brain.

i think i better just stop now because i have to take a shower and go to class. before you reply to this post, please remember that i did not assert any statements of truth, and be sure you have not misread anything. They're just the things i constantly think about. I'm just another kid with a God damned opinion.