Flint Michigan poisoned water supply (not spam)

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  • graveshaker
    E30 Modder
    • Sep 2009
    • 828

    #1

    Flint Michigan poisoned water supply (not spam)

    Hello all, I'm sure many of you by now have heard of the problem regarding Flint Michigan horrible water issue. Living just 40 miles north of Flint the problem hits home. This has been an on going issue for quite some time now.
    In case you haven't heard, Governor Rick Snyder appointed a deputy Mayor to oversee Flint financial crisis. One cost saving venture was to stop buying water from Detroit who gets it's water from the Great lakes (one of the cleanest water supplies in the world) and pipe in to Flint's own inland river. The same river that chemical plants and General Motors were accused of dumping toxic waste for years. Switching to this water supply would have saved Flint money. As soon as the switch was made, Flint residents noticed something was not right with the water. After many town hall meetings Governor Snyder promised the water was safe to drink but in reality he knew all along the water had high amounts of lead. The people of Flint drank, bathed and cooked with this toxic water for over a year. The combination of toxic water and the use of chemicals to treat the tainted water ate the lining off the pipes which in turn pumped debris and lead into everyone homes. There are countless reports of new lead poising cases popping up everyday with Flint children. Many have developed horrible skin rashes due to the tainted water. Flint Michigan is now like a third world country in regards to bathing and using bottled water to everything.
    Governor Snyder was persuaded to released all emails dating back two years that reveals the ugly truth.

    Now the whole country is aware and boat loads of bottled water is being donated but this is a temporary fix. Can you imagine not being able to use water in your entire city?
















    And Michael Moore (Flint native) sums it up with a letter to the Governor

    Dear Governor Snyder:
    Thanks to you, sir, and the premeditated actions of your administrators, you have effectively poisoned, not just some, but apparently ALL of the children in my hometown of Flint, Michigan.
    And for that, you have to go to jail.
    To poison all the children in an historic American city is no small feat. Even international terrorist organizations haven't figured out yet how to do something on a magnitude like this.
    But you did. Your staff and others knew that the water in the Flint River was poison -- but you decided that taking over the city and "cutting costs" to "balance the budget" was more important than the people's health (not to mention their democratic rights to elect their own leaders). So you cut off the clean, fresh glacial lake water of Lake Huron that the citizens of Flint (including myself) had been drinking for decades and, instead, made them drink water from the industrial cesspool we call the Flint River -- a body of "water" where toxins from a dozen General Motors and DuPont factories have been dumped for over a hundred years. And then you decided to put a chemical in this water to "clean" it -- which only ended up stripping the lead off of Flint's aging water pipes, placing that lead in the water and sending it straight into people's taps. Your callous -- and reckless (btw, "reckless" doesn't get you a pass; a reckless driver who kills a child, still goes to jail) -- decision to do this has now, as revealed by the city's top medical facility, caused "irreversible brain damage" in Flint's children, not to mention other bodily damage to all of Flint's adults. Here's how bad it is: Even GM won't let the auto parts they use in building cars touch the Flint water because that water "corrodes" them (link). This is a company that won't even fix an ignition switch after they've discovered it's already killed dozens of people. THAT's how bad the situation is. Even GM thinks you're the devil.
    Maybe you don't understand the science behind this. Lead, in water -- now, bear with me, this involves a science lesson and you belong to the anti-science party, the one that believes there's not a climate problem and that Adam and Eve rode on dinosaurs 6,000 years ago. Lead is toxic to the human body. There's no way to fully eliminate it once it's in your system, and children are the most damaged by it.
    By taking away the city's clean drinking water in order to "cut costs," and then switching the city's water supply to Flint River water, you have allowed massively unsafe levels of pollutants and lead into the water that travels in to everyone's home. Every Flint resident is trapped by this environmental nightmare which you, Governor, have created.
    Like any real criminal, when you were confronted with the truth (by the EPA and other leading water experts across America), you denied what you did. Even worse, you decided to mock your accusers and their findings. As I said, I know you don't like to believe in a lot of science (after all, you used to run Gateway Computers, and that, really, is all anyone needs to know about you), but this time the science has caught up with you -- and this time, I hope, it's going to convict you.
    The facts are all there, Mr. Snyder. Every agency involved in this scheme reported directly to you. The children of Flint didn't have a choice as to whether or not they were going to get to drink clean water. But soon it will be your turn to not have that choice about which water you'll be drinking. Because by this time next year, if there is an ounce of justice left in this land, the water you'll be drinking will be served to you from a tap inside Jackson Prison.
    I am calling upon my fellow Michiganders -- and seekers of justice everywhere -- to petition U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch, asking her to arrest you for corruption and assault (i.e., the physical assault you committed against the children of Flint when you knowingly poisoned them).
    Yesterday, the federal prosecutor in Flint, after many of us had called for months for this action, finally opened up an investigation into the matter (link). Now we need your arrest, prosecution and conviction.
    And who will be cheering on that day when you are fitted with a bright orange jumpsuit? The poor and minority communities of Michigan who've endured your dictatorial firing of their mayors and school boards so you could place your business friends in charge of their mostly-black cities. They know you never would have done this to a wealthy white suburb.
    I welcome all to look at the appalling facts of this case, which have been reported brilliantly here, here, and especially here by the great Rachel Maddow. Thank you, Rachel, for caring so deeply when the rest of the national television media didn't.
    I'm asking everyone who agrees with me to sign on to this petition and call for your arrest, Governor Snyder. You are not allowed to run amok in my hometown like you have done. The children whom you have poisoned have to endure a life of pain and lower IQ's from your actions. You have destroyed a generation of children -- and for that, you must pay.
    It is time for you to go to prison. Out of mercy, I'll ask that you have in your cell your own personal Gateway computer.
    Sincerely,
    Michael Moore
    Flint native
    Michigan resident and voter
    P.S. For everyone wanting to sign on to this petition calling for the IMMEDIATE resignation of Governor Snyder AND for the FBI to arrest him, please sign the petition petition below...
  • Das Delfin
    R3VLimited
    • Sep 2014
    • 2293

    #2
    That's terrible. I can't help but notice the irony in that they tried saving money and are going to end up paying for all these people's medical bills not to mention replacing an entire city's water system.. you'd figure they would have seen "contaminated water" as a red flag

    I can't believe idiots like this are in power. We need more intelligent people to run for office. Maybe the children of the baby boom will eventually out number the Strom Thurmonds of the world


    it's a Kenny Powers quote on wheels

    Comment

    • Exodus_2pt0
      R3V Elite
      • Dec 2011
      • 5943

      #3
      Such bullshit. It's ridiculous how cash is put at a higher value than life.
      No E30 Club
      Originally posted by MrBurgundy
      Anyways, mustangs are gay and mini vans are faster than your car, you just have to deal with that.

      Comment

      • graveshaker
        E30 Modder
        • Sep 2009
        • 828

        #4
        That's what happens when you put a multimillionaire business man in public office. He runs the state like a business with little regard to human life.
        Last edited by graveshaker; 01-26-2016, 05:34 AM.

        Comment

        • mrsleeve
          I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
          • Mar 2005
          • 16385

          #5
          You have any idea how many lead water services I replaced in older parts of Lansing, Kzoo, Battle Creek, Jackson and though I never saw one my self I know there are still a few in A2 when I lived in MI and worked for a decade putting in municipal water and sewer systems. 6-8 a day for about a 100 days a year, for 5-6 years you do the math and that was just one crew working on them where new water main was put in. I know there were 10's of thousands left all over the state when I left in 06.

          The rust in the water in the images is from the inside of the old (and new) Cast iron water mains, and is being dissolved by the new water supply as stated above this likely includes much of the lead joint water main put in pre WWII.

          . But I would like to point out some things Mr Moore (as usual has gotten wrong to make his point) The water in lake Huron clean is a bit of a stretch. Thing is though Detroit does not get its water from there. Its intakes are on the St Clair River and Lake St Clair ( I used to fish those lakes theSt.Clair system is one of, if not the best muskie fishery in the world) I never ate more than 2 fish a year form those waters they are hardly clean.... Cleaner than the Flint river for sure though not making that argument. Just pointing out that the St Clair system is far more polluted than say Huron is in general.....

          I agree it needs to be fixed, and the system flushed, and made safe again, if the Gov is Culpable then by all means charges should be filed. But I dont think the case can be made to lynch the man for trying to get people in place to balance the budget, ignoring test results and ignoring other issues on the other hand can be suitable cause .

          Its a crying shame what is happening there and I searching for those emails now. As a former state resident with family still there I want see some of these things.
          Originally posted by Fusion
          If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
          The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


          The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

          Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
          William Pitt-

          Comment

          • graveshaker
            E30 Modder
            • Sep 2009
            • 828

            #6
            And this is from a local hospital. The only escape is driving an hour north or an hour south.

            Comment

            • McGyver
              R3V Elite
              • Jun 2009
              • 4471

              #7
              From what I've seen on TV and read here, the whole situation is really terrible and I feel bad for the residents of Flint. Someone should be held accountable, but it is more complicated than just holding a single person responsible. Here are some of my thoughts about why this is a complicated issue:

              1) The Flint River would have been a viable water supply if it had not been polluted for "a hundred years". Should GM or DuPont be held responsible for creating the mess in the first place? Or the government for not regulating the industry? Or the people for not forcing the government to regulate?

              2) Flint was in financial crisis. Why didn't the voters put responsible public servants into office? If they weren't in crisis, there would not have been cost savings measures and the water supply wouldn't have been changed.

              3) The water distribution system in Flint is antiquated at best, but it appears to be using obsolete materials. Where was the push to fix the water distribution system? Who is that on, regulators, elected officials, the voters? Why didn't they at least line the water system? The City of Richmond is lining our sewers as a stop-gap for having to completely replace our 100-200 year old system. The same type of solution is available for water supply.

              4) They changed their water supply to save money. They would never have been allowed to use water from their own river if there was no way to treat the water to make it safe. Who reviewed and approved the process to treat the water?

              5) It sounds like although the water was more corrosive, it was still in acceptable limits for drinking. It sounds like the problem was the more corrosive water was breaking down the materials in the existing infrastructure and that's how it becomes toxic. Who was responsible for oversight?

              Finally, Michael Moore is a sensationalist that will ride on the coattails of any disaster to stay relevant through manipulating facts. Even if he did make a good point, I don't trust his self-serving agenda.

              So yeah, based on my limited knowledge, I have no idea who to blame. I just hope the people get the help they need.

              *EDIT*

              I just thought of 2 more people who could share blame.

              6) The designers of the water supply system provided a design that has failed. The one is difficult because their blame depends on the design life of the system, the intended water supply, the maintenance of the system, and the demand on the system. However, they designed and built a system that was supposed to be safe for the public, but inherent safety problems based on their choice of materials and construction methods. Should they be blamed?

              7) Last, should the City of Flint be blamed because they didn't properly maintain the entire water system. (This is different from their responsibility to repair/replace the aging system and is also different from their responsibility to supply safe water)

              All of this aside, a group of people may also be responsible for the criminal action of trying to cover up this accident and that's a different conversation. (Accident because the intent was to save money, not to poison people.) I'm just trying to illustrate that it is difficult to assign blame for an engineering accident like this when the original intent was to benefit people. If anyone is interested, there is a good book I recently read called, "To Engineer Is Human". It discusses the nuances of all of the contributing factors to an engineering accident and how we can learn from them.
              Last edited by McGyver; 01-26-2016, 06:34 AM.
              sigpic
              1987 - 325i Convertible Delphin Auto [SOLD], 325i Convertible Delphin Manual [SOLD]
              1989 - 325i Convertible Bronzit m30b35 swapped [SCRAPPED], 325i Sedan Alpine Auto[DD]
              1991 - 325i Coupe Laguna Manual [Project], 535i Sedan Alpine [SCRAPPED]

              Comment

              • graveshaker
                E30 Modder
                • Sep 2009
                • 828

                #8
                Originally posted by McGyver
                From what I've seen on TV and read here, the whole situation is really terrible and I feel bad for the residents of Flint. Someone should be held accountable, but it is more complicated than just holding a single person responsible. Here are some of my thoughts about why this is a complicated issue:

                1) The Flint River would have been a viable water supply if it had not been polluted for "a hundred years". Should GM or DuPont be held responsible for creating the mess in the first place? Or the government for not regulating the industry? Or the people for not forcing the government to regulate?

                2) Flint was in financial crisis. Why didn't the voters put responsible public servants into office? If they weren't in crisis, there would not have been cost savings measures and the water supply wouldn't have been changed.

                3) The water distribution system in Flint is antiquated at best, but it appears to be using obsolete materials. Where was the push to fix the water distribution system? Who is that on, regulators, elected officials, the voters? Why didn't they at least line the water system? The City of Richmond is lining our sewers as a stop-gap for having to completely replace our 100-200 year old system. The same type of solution is available for water supply.

                4) They changed their water supply to save money. They would never have been allowed to use water from their own river if there was no way to treat the water to make it safe. Who reviewed and approved the process to treat the water?

                5) It sounds like although the water was more corrosive, it was still in acceptable limits for drinking. It sounds like the problem was the more corrosive water was breaking down the materials in the existing infrastructure and that's how it becomes toxic. Who was responsible for oversight?

                6) Finally, Michael Moore is a sensationalist that will ride on the coattails of any disaster to stay relevant through manipulating facts. Even if he did make a good point, I don't trust his self-serving agenda.

                So yeah, based on my limited knowledge, I have no idea who to blame. I just hope the people get the help they need.

                I can understand your view point from looking at the situation from the outside. Here's the thing, everyone including the Governor knew about the toxic levels in the flint river. The Governor promised the residents that it could be treated with chlorine. He paid for and selected a testing facility to test the treated water and lied about it's purity. After many complaints of the water smelling like a swimming pool a third party tester was done and the ugly truth started to be reveled.
                What you are now seeing on the media is not the whole story. Governor Snyder has been caught in so many lies about this water crises over the two year period it's hard to keep track.
                Governor Synder had the final say on all matters.
                This is an early news report. It gets worse and worse

                Comment

                • McGyver
                  R3V Elite
                  • Jun 2009
                  • 4471

                  #9
                  Originally posted by graveshaker
                  I can understand your view point from looking at the situation from the outside.
                  I hope my edit clarified that I was only discussing the sequence of events that led to the accident and who should be responsible for allowing the problem to happen in the first place.

                  I not talking about how the accident was handled AFTER it was known what was happening. It's obvious that covering up the issue, doctoring reports/test results, and lying to the people should definitely be grounds for criminal charges.
                  sigpic
                  1987 - 325i Convertible Delphin Auto [SOLD], 325i Convertible Delphin Manual [SOLD]
                  1989 - 325i Convertible Bronzit m30b35 swapped [SCRAPPED], 325i Sedan Alpine Auto[DD]
                  1991 - 325i Coupe Laguna Manual [Project], 535i Sedan Alpine [SCRAPPED]

                  Comment

                  • 5Toes
                    Banned
                    • May 2010
                    • 9836

                    #10
                    And now the water is chlorinated way too much, so theres that risk too. They just cant get it right.. to add to that they also denied independent doctor's and scientists's studies and persisted to tell the public the water is safe. They down played lead poisoning on children as well. Its a giant mess.

                    The side of the story I have not heard, however is WHY THE WATER HAS SUCH HIGH LEAD CONTENT IN THE FIRST PLACE??? I suspect GM dumped alot of chemicals in the Flint River, but I dont really know...

                    Comment

                    • McGyver
                      R3V Elite
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 4471

                      #11
                      Originally posted by 5Toes
                      The side of the story I have not heard, however is WHY THE WATER HAS SUCH HIGH LEAD CONTENT IN THE FIRST PLACE??? I suspect GM dumped alot of chemicals in the Flint River, but I dont really know...
                      The water supply isn't great, so they treat it and chlorinate it to clean it up. The added treatment makes it more corrosive. The more corrosive water corrodes the existing water supply infrastructure faster. That infrastructure has lead solder to seal joints and fittings and cast iron pipes. Individual houses may also have lead solder and/or lead pipes. Lead solder leads to higher lead content, the cast iron leads to more oxidation (rust) and discoloration.
                      sigpic
                      1987 - 325i Convertible Delphin Auto [SOLD], 325i Convertible Delphin Manual [SOLD]
                      1989 - 325i Convertible Bronzit m30b35 swapped [SCRAPPED], 325i Sedan Alpine Auto[DD]
                      1991 - 325i Coupe Laguna Manual [Project], 535i Sedan Alpine [SCRAPPED]

                      Comment

                      • M-technik-3
                        I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 18946

                        #12
                        My kids live in Saginaw like you and this scares me. Michigan has had so much industry and the EPA getting a handy and turning a blind eye is scary. Saginaw has had a ton of GM industry lets hope they have been testing the water there. Mine comes from two wells on my property and both were tested prior to purchasing the home.
                        https://www.facebook.com/BentOverRacing

                        Comment

                        • ST1G
                          R3V OG
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 6689

                          #13
                          Originally posted by McGyver
                          The water supply isn't great, so they treat it and chlorinate it to clean it up. The added treatment makes it more corrosive. The more corrosive water corrodes the existing water supply infrastructure faster. That infrastructure has lead solder to seal joints and fittings and cast iron pipes. Individual houses may also have lead solder and/or lead pipes. Lead solder leads to higher lead content, the cast iron leads to more oxidation (rust) and discoloration.
                          From what I've heard a film builds up on the pipes and when the person in charge of the Flint water supply over chlorinated the water which broke down the film, and started to eat into the pipes.

                          Comment

                          • graveshaker
                            E30 Modder
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 828

                            #14
                            And the big kicker, they still charge residents for the tainted water and send shutoff notices to non payers for the useless water.

                            Comment

                            • graveshaker
                              E30 Modder
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 828

                              #15
                              Originally posted by M-technik-3
                              My kids live in Saginaw like you and this scares me. Michigan has had so much industry and the EPA getting a handy and turning a blind eye is scary. Saginaw has had a ton of GM industry lets hope they have been testing the water there. Mine comes from two wells on my property and both were tested prior to purchasing the home.
                              You're right.

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