homebuying fun (caution: stupidly wide .jpg)

[ajhostetter]

Damn that is plumbing porn!


The house is a simple, narrow, interior rowhouse. 1900's construction. Brick. Steam radiant heating, gas appliances.

I'm being mindful of the scope creep with my budget of around $40k for renovation. Re-doing the bathroom and kitchen are part of it, along with the rooftop deck and a sun louver facade (the front faces south and the house has no A/C, looking to minimize solar gain). I'm going to rip out the carpet and see what's under there (hoping original flooring, which I will refinish).

Other than that the house is in good shape, the wiring has been redone and I am NOT gutting the place. The only thing I may do to improve insulation is spray foaming the roof cavity (flat roof) and building out the exterior walls with studs and insulating the wall cavities.


I think I can achieve what I want within my budget. I've been talking to a couple contractors and will be getting bids soon.

Sounds like a great find. If you're handy and have a habitat restore in the area, I recommend looking at them cabinets and what-not. We did our full kitchen for $6k 8 years ago and that includes the travertine flooring (I don't recommend that). As far as our heat/hot water system, we pulled the 2200 feet of tubing ourselves and had the plumber terminate everything. It wasn't cheap, but it's gorgeous and incredibly efficient.

[Kershaw]

Disagree. The things that contribute to an older homes value and character and all the original features - plaster walls, floors, doors, windows, light fixtures, you name it.

I have never seen nearly 100 year old plaster and lath look great. My walls have all been poorly patched all over the place, multiple layers of wallpaper, and then multiple layers of paint. I'm actually in the middle of removing loose sections of plaster and patching and smoothing over all the wallpaper lines in the front two rooms. It's a pain in the ass. None of the walls are very flat either. And then on top of all this, all the trim is still painted. Beautifully stained oak trim painted white. Is it cost effective to remove it all without breaking it and then have it all dipped and chemically stripped? No, just get new trim, it's not like we're talking about fast growth southern yellow pine that looks dramatically different. Might as well rip everything out, shim/sister the studs flat, new drywall, new oak trim and restore it to it's original condition. And while the studs are exposed, put in outlets every 8 feet or 2 per wall or whatever. My house came with 1 outlet per room, retrofitting outlets sucks.

The wavy glass is a cool feature of my old windows (most still have it), I agree. Unfortunately, none of the windows are in great shape. They're all chipped, have holes, or damage all the bottom edges. They're all double hung and none seal that great against the top window. Even more unfortunate is that even if you pay out the ass for the correctly styled wood windows, the wood is not the same. It's not 300 year oak old growth that'll last 100 years with abuse or indefinitely with care anymore.

Each house is different though, of course, ymmv.

[evandael]

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

Damn that is plumbing porn!


The house is a simple, narrow, interior rowhouse. 1900's construction. Brick. Steam radiant heating, gas appliances.

I'm being mindful of the scope creep with my budget of around $40k for renovation. Re-doing the bathroom and kitchen are part of it, along with the rooftop deck and a sun louver facade (the front faces south and the house has no A/C, looking to minimize solar gain). I'm going to rip out the carpet and see what's under there (hoping original flooring, which I will refinish).

Other than that the house is in good shape, the wiring has been redone and I am NOT gutting the place. The only thing I may do to improve insulation is spray foaming the roof cavity (flat roof) and building out the exterior walls with studs and insulating the wall cavities.


I think I can achieve what I want within my budget. I've been talking to a couple contractors and will be getting bids soon.

[flyboyx]

Highlands/Jeff Park off Speer and I25. Understood on the wiring. Ours is 98% new, since the PO had all kinds of weird stuff with the wiring, between flying splices, nonsensical outlet/circuit layout, etc...

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

wow. that heating system cost a buck or two. looks like you had a plumber that takes some pride in his craft.

[ajhostetter]

As for windows, no, you don't need to replace them. Old windows are very simple, and are easily repaired. They can also be supplemented with storm windows to make them perform about as well as new windows, provided there are no leaks. By keeping the old windows, you've kept part of the home's character, and saved a ton of money. And because they are simple to fix, if one window breaks, or has rot issues, it can be repaired pretty cheaply. New windows however, can't really be repaired as easily. If something breaks you're more likely looking at replacement, and hopefully they still make the model you bought. If they don't, then you're looking at either custom windows, mismatched windows, or a whole new set. I would never recommend replacing the windows in a home with any historic value.

Insulating the building could be difficult since it looks like it's probably brick. If it's anything like the c. 1833 building my family had until recently, it probably has plaster directly over the brick. Not much you can do with that.

+1 on the windows. We have really good storms on ours, and they insulate pretty well. Plus, fixing sash weights isn't that hard and is kinda fun.

As far as insulating, the best thing I think you can do if you have plaster over brick, as we do, is the insulate the attic really well. Ours is due, now that I think about it...

[ajhostetter]

Are you in wash park or cherry creek?



The problem with knob and tube is the insulation on the conductors. For some reason, rodents like to chew on it and it has a tendency to disintegrate over time. If it isn't a safety hazard today, it will be one day. Also, that system has no ground. That can be a safety hazard in itself. Especially in areas where gfci's are required. For, my peace of mind and the extra sleep I'll get not staying awake worrying about the house catching fire with my family in it is easily worth the cost of replacement.

Highlands/Jeff Park off Speer and I25. Understood on the wiring. Ours is 98% new, since the PO had all kinds of weird stuff with the wiring, between flying splices, nonsensical outlet/circuit layout, etc...

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

[rturbo 930]

You make a lot of excellent points above. Old trim and fixtures can be saved and replaced at the end of a reno. There is generally nothing much from an old kitchen that is saved. When it comes to this room people want new and modern but with the look of the period when the house was built.

Yeah, kitchens and bathrooms are an exception to some extent. Those are two rooms where modern fixtures and appliances make sense, but IMO they should be done in an appropriate style. In old homes where it looks like Home Depot just took a shit in the kitchen and bathrooms, I just have to shake my head. The look doesn't fit at all.

Plaster itself really doesnt add character to a house unless you plan on leaving cracks or uneveness. Well done plaster and well done sheetrock should look about the same.

I disagree with you somewhat. If someone takes the time to make their plaster walls laser straight, then you're right, it probably won't make a difference. But for me, that's part of the charm of an old home, that the walls aren't perfectly straight and textured. Plaster walls are also much more durable than sheetrock, and although I've never had them, I've heard they're also good for blocking noise, and also against fire. I know some people don't care or don't notice, but I'm pretty strict with keeping things original.

It really boils down to the quality of reno done and budget available. If the budget is huge you can buy modern windows that look like old windows. They will far exceede the performance of what they replace.

Yes, you can get custom windows in the style of the original, but you will pay a fortune, and they won't have the original wavy glass, unless you pay an even larger fortune for authentic wavy window glass. Even then, it won't look exactly the same. Nothing is perfect in an old house, and anything that is perfect will stick out. You're better off dealing with the higher heating and cooling bill IMO. And, once again, storm windows in conjunction with restored original windows make a big difference. You might be surprised.

http://www.oldhouseguy.com/windows/

Personally, I think that if someone buys an old home, they should be willing to deal with the drawbacks of an old home. It's never going to be perfect, and it will never be as good as a new home in terms of performance. And it will only be original once.

[flyboyx]

I would say anything past 1930, with a few exceptions.

Disagree. The things that contribute to an older homes value and character and all the original features - plaster walls, floors, doors, windows, light fixtures, you name it. If you remove all these elements and replace them with modern equivalents because they are "better" then ultimately you will have destroyed everything that made it special, and it will just be another new home, but with old walls. If there is something wrong with the plaster, or it HAD to be torn out to access something, then it is what it is, but otherwise, I'd leave it. Plaster can be repaired, also, if the work isn't invasive. For the record though, I have no problem updating all the behind the scenes stuff - plumbing, electric, HVAC, etc. when needed.

As for windows, no, you don't need to replace them. Old windows are very simple, and are easily repaired. They can also be supplemented with storm windows to make them perform about as well as new windows, provided there are no leaks. By keeping the old windows, you've kept part of the home's character, and saved a ton of money. And because they are simple to fix, if one window breaks, or has rot issues, it can be repaired pretty cheaply. New windows however, can't really be repaired as easily. If something breaks you're more likely looking at replacement, and hopefully they still make the model you bought. If they don't, then you're looking at either custom windows, mismatched windows, or a whole new set. I would never recommend replacing the windows in a home with any historic value.

Insulating the building could be difficult since it looks like it's probably brick. If it's anything like the c. 1833 building my family had until recently, it probably has plaster directly over the brick. Not much you can do with that.

You make a lot of excellent points above. Old trim and fixtures can be saved and replaced at the end of a reno. There is generally nothing much from an old kitchen that is saved. When it comes to this room people want new and modern but with the look of the period when the house was built.

Plaster itself really doesnt add character to a house unless you plan on leaving cracks or uneveness. Well done plaster and well done sheetrock should look about the same.

It really boils down to the quality of reno done and budget available. If the budget is huge you can buy modern windows that look like old windows. They will far exceede the performance of what they replace.

With that said, im not necessarily in favor of a complete gut job unless the house is in bad enough condition to warrant doing so. Also the cost of the finished product needs to be in line with the value of the neighborhood.

[rturbo 930]

Older houses definitely have way more character than anything 1950 and onward.

I would say anything past 1930, with a few exceptions.

If you can afford it, rip out all the plaster/drywall, replace all the wiring, and put up new drywall before you move in. I didn't do this and I regret it. Doing it one room at a time while you live there is painful and slow. Just be careful of scope creep, because you're going to want to replace the windows while you're doing that too.

Disagree. The things that contribute to an older homes value and character and all the original features - plaster walls, floors, doors, windows, light fixtures, you name it. If you remove all these elements and replace them with modern equivalents because they are "better" then ultimately you will have destroyed everything that made it special, and it will just be another new home, but with old walls. If there is something wrong with the plaster, or it HAD to be torn out to access something, then it is what it is, but otherwise, I'd leave it. Plaster can be repaired, also, if the work isn't invasive. For the record though, I have no problem updating all the behind the scenes stuff - plumbing, electric, HVAC, etc. when needed.

As for windows, no, you don't need to replace them. Old windows are very simple, and are easily repaired. They can also be supplemented with storm windows to make them perform about as well as new windows, provided there are no leaks. By keeping the old windows, you've kept part of the home's character, and saved a ton of money. And because they are simple to fix, if one window breaks, or has rot issues, it can be repaired pretty cheaply. New windows however, can't really be repaired as easily. If something breaks you're more likely looking at replacement, and hopefully they still make the model you bought. If they don't, then you're looking at either custom windows, mismatched windows, or a whole new set. I would never recommend replacing the windows in a home with any historic value.

Insulating the building could be difficult since it looks like it's probably brick. If it's anything like the c. 1833 building my family had until recently, it probably has plaster directly over the brick. Not much you can do with that.

[flyboyx]

Are you in wash park or cherry creek?



The problem with knob and tube is the insulation on the conductors. For some reason, rodents like to chew on it and it has a tendency to disintegrate over time. If it isn't a safety hazard today, it will be one day. Also, that system has no ground. That can be a safety hazard in itself. Especially in areas where gfci's are required. For, my peace of mind and the extra sleep I'll get not staying awake worrying about the house catching fire with my family in it is easily worth the cost of replacement.

[ajhostetter]

Our place was built in 1912 and needed a TON of work (no kitchen, poorly done wiring in the 80s/90s, etc....) but we love it. I'm from Lancaster originally, where in PA are you?

I can second or third on scope creep. I call them the "while we're at it's." I would question the drywall thing. We left a lot of the original plaster in our house because it was in fine shape, and it's not been an issue over the past 8 years we've owned it. Also, if it has knob and tube wiring that's in good shape, leave it. IMO, the only wiring that should be replaced no matter what is aluminum.

[flyboyx]

Congrats. I decided to do an early century house too (1926) 3 years ago and while I have spent right around $30k in home renovation over the past 3 years, it's been very rewarding and very worth it. Older houses definitely have way more character than anything 1950 and onward.

If you can afford it, rip out all the plaster/drywall, replace all the wiring, and put up new drywall before you move in. I didn't do this and I regret it. Doing it one room at a time while you live there is painful and slow. Just be careful of scope creep, because you're going to want to replace the windows while you're doing that too.

Also, insulate the hell out of it.

[Kershaw]

Congrats. I decided to do an early century house too (1926) 3 years ago and while I have spent right around $30k in home renovation over the past 3 years, it's been very rewarding and very worth it. Older houses definitely have way more character than anything 1950 and onward.

If you can afford it, rip out all the plaster/drywall, replace all the wiring, and put up new drywall before you move in. I didn't do this and I regret it. Doing it one room at a time while you live there is painful and slow. Just be careful of scope creep, because you're going to want to replace the windows while you're doing that too.

[Stanley Rockafella]

that's an awesome view!

[Exodus_2pt0]

That's pretty cool.