24 hrs of Le Mans

[LateFan]

As much of a P-car fan as I am, I still feel really badly for the Toyota people. But the rules say you must have gone farther, and you must be running at 24 hours. You can't have trashed cars that they parked until the end out there limping around trying to finish on the last lap. They have the lowest budget of all the big teams and were truly the underdog doing well. I saw the Porsche guys went over to the Toyota garage to shake their hands, and the Toyota people went over to Porsche and were applauded - that stuff is nice.

Here's a nice video of highlights, 10 minutes of just video with no talking - well done. It's interesting for me to see the super slo-mo drift with the tire loading and sidewall flex.
http://autoweek.com/article/24-hours...-hours-le-mans



That helicopter following shot down the Mulsanne.....oh...

I watched live feeds from the various cars and listened to Radio Le Mans until I was sick of those guys jabbering about statistics. Some interesting things I noted:
The Audi on-board feed had every kind of information - lateral g force, throttle, braking, batteries, everything - live, from a race car, in France....crazy talk! So it would creep up to 319, 320kph and just sit there, every lap. That must be the limit between downforce drag and horsepower. And it never gets above about 4500rpm, which is weird to me.
The Porsche 919 sounds like a star wars spaceship taking off - crazy!
The Ford GT does sound a bit farty....and I'd like to see some rpms!...but this is the era of fuel flow limits I guess.
Corvettes weren't at all dominant like in the past - snookered by the sandbags it seems.
The factory 911s didn't do shit. Then one of them BLEW UP! In the 70s and 80s, the entire GT field was 911s, they were like jellybeans out there!
Racing in the dark just before the sun comes up - wow. Daytona is lit up like a stadium and it barely feels like night racing.
"STAHP flashing your lights at me, asshole! I SEE you already!"
Anyone know what caused the Corvette to just jerk to the right into the tires?
I'd love to be one of those mechanics who swaps out a suspension or transmission in 10 minutes - all the right tools right there, bim boom bang.
I kind of like the old fashioned safety rules in the pits - shut it off, fuel it, clean the windows...."now you may change a tire..."


I once looked up all the different track configurations, as the towns grew too close and the speeds grew too fast. It started out as a long pointy thing, then they turned right at the edge of Le Mans to avoid the city.



Some of my favorite places - Mulsanne of course, the chicanes are annoying but the speeds were just too high and people were flying into the trees (Webber). The kink at Mulsanne, where fans would listen in the night to see if drivers would lift or go full throttle through there in the dark. The hump at Mulsanne - sad they flattened it out. The Mulsanne corner was cooler with the sharper turn, but they had to put a traffic circle in there, so they moved the track to the right to miss it.

The Porsche Curves are cool and difficult, but fun to watch. I still miss White House. The Ford Chicane (and the second one there) are really annoying, but I guess that's the idea, it slows you WAY down before start-finish. I miss the curve up the hill to Dunlop, seems like with the Ford chicane they could put that back in. I read it was because the motorcycles were just way to fast going up the hill. The Esses below Dunlop are so sweet - as a kid I loved those photos with the high dirt banks around the curves, later I couldn't figure out where those pictures were taken because they opened it all up for safety.

Tertre Rouge never use to bug me until that Aston guy died in the first hour against the trees. Now I sort of lean right as I watch them go through there.....

I just love the rip through the trees and the approach to Indianapolis, and I love that connection between the two tracks. Indianapolis always feels like a slingshot to me. Then Arnage is cool (and so fun to say) where you hit the public highway again. The pictures from the 60s always show Ferraris stuck in the sandbank there and some poor sap trying to dig his car out with a shovel someone handed him.

What's everyone's favorite corner or place? Have any of you been there?


These are for Elva- those NART Daytonas were badass. So you are indirectly royalty in my book!

[QUKBMER]

Lol i agree with you. I have hardback books at home on shelby cobra/ daytona,gt40, chaparral,bmw,audi,porsche,ferrari,ford,chevy racing history.You need to spend hours/days/weeks/years on learning to become a racing history buff.

[ELVA164]

x2 Im really enjoying this. Im not a big Ford fan but I love the story of the GT40.

If you're not a Ford fan yet, I suggest you look into the history of the Kent block, the Ford connection to Cosworth and the DFV, the MkI and MKII Escort (one of the best rwd rally cars of all time)...they're pretty cool.

[QUKBMER]

I'm just glad Porsche won again. ;);););)

[2mAn]

fuck the race! this thread is a total history lesson! school is in session and i have my feet on the desk. 8)

x2 Im really enjoying this. Im not a big Ford fan but I love the story of the GT40.

[ELVA164]

I'm just happy I found a place where I can talk about this stuff! I really love the history but people my age don't really care... :(

I think I'll share some photos of the Lola Mk6, the origin of the GT40. Eric Broadley, the founder of Lola, was originally brought on to help with the Ford effort but quickly left because he felt the new car was making too many design compromises which would affect is durability. He obviously knew what he was talking about if the first two years of Ford's effort are any indication. You can see the family resemblance.





And yes, those are Cortina taillights.

[flyboyx]

fuck the race! this thread is a total history lesson! school is in session and i have my feet on the desk. 8)

[ELVA164]

Yeah, that finish was a pretty big point of contention back in the day. The main argument for the tiebreaker was the McLaren car started farther back, so they actually traveled a greater distance.

I would have liked Toyota to win. It was 25 years since the only other Japanese overall win (787B) and they were obviously the class of the field.

[stonea]

I still can't really believe that finish. Toyota might have dominated the whole race, but those last 6 minutes really counted.

[LateFan]

"It's obviously splitting hairs, but the MkIV was developed further from J-car spec. A stronger honeycomb chassis, revised aerodynamics (reducing lift), and the roll cage were some changes."

I didn't know this - interesting!


So this is the J-car test car? The Mk IV is radically different.




They even tried a breadvan!


The great Ken Miles...
British WWII tank driver, motorcycle racer, race car mechanic, engineer, and driver. He won the '66 Daytona, Sebring, and would have won Le Mans but the staged 1-2-3 finishing photo gave the win to Amon-McLaren. He helped Carroll Shelby develop the Cobra, the GT40, and the GT350 Mustang.

[ELVA164]

Also, it's worth noting that the 1967 victory is the only all-American win in Le Mans history! (Manufacturer, country of manufacture, drivers, team, engine, and tires)

[ELVA164]

The Mark IV got bumped because of a rule change, correct? 427 no longer allowed, so they went back to the Mark I chassis with the 289 / 302? Prototypes could only be 3 liter, with sports cars 5 liter, as long as you built 5o of them. Well, they had built a lot of Mark I GT40s by then, which led to the 68 and 69 wins.

Yep, the French couldn't have us ruining their party that thoroughly so they just outlawed everything...they thought.

Then they changed the rules again after the 68 and 69 wins, Porsche found a way to take advantage of the minimum number of cars produced with 5 liters, and the 917 dominated until they were outlawed as well.

An (ultimately, after multiple deaths) impressive response to a seemingly unimportant loophole.

The Mark IV always seemed way bigger and more slab-sided to me when I was younger, and I was surprised to learn that it was actually lighter! Then a bigger roll cage was added, which killed the weight advantage.

I actually find this facet of the MkIV design particularly impressive; it was the first race car with a purpose-built and designed-in roll structure. Definitely a step in the right direction even though it added over 300 pounds. Obviously they could afford it if Sebring and Le Mans were any indication.

Also, I think my bias is partly because that's the car that broke in half and killed Ken Miles, which has always pissed me off.

Yeah, the J-car accident was tragic for sure. It's obviously splitting hairs, but the MkIV was developed further from J-car spec. A stronger honeycomb chassis, revised aerodynamics (reducing lift), and the roll cage were some changes. Too late, of course.

But yes, amazing car. Foyt-Gurney!

EDIT - Also, wasn't there something about Ford getting out of race team management after they have proved their point with the Mark IV? The team went to John Wyer, who went back to the Lola-based chassis...is that right?

Yes, Ford's new car was then useless and like you say they'd make their point with the MkI/II well enough. Wyer began taking over with development of the J-car.

He brought with him Gulf Oil sponsorship, so we have the famous Gulf blue GT40s. Porsche hired him after that, and he brought Gulf blue to the 917s, although it was the Porsche family-sponsored red & white car that won. Wyer won some Spas / Daytonas / Sebrings in Gulf blue 917s I think.

[LateFan]

The Mark IV got bumped because of a rule change, correct? 427 no longer allowed, so they went back to the Mark I chassis with the 289 / 302? Prototypes could only be 3 liter, with sports cars 5 liter, as long as you built 5o of them. Well, they had built a lot of Mark I GT40s by then, which led to the 68 and 69 wins.

Then they changed the rules again after the 68 and 69 wins, Porsche found a way to take advantage of the minimum number of cars produced with 5 liters, and the 917 dominated until they were outlawed as well.

The Mark IV always seemed way bigger and more slab-sided to me when I was younger, and I was surprised to learn that it was actually lighter! Then a bigger roll cage was added, which killed the weight advantage.

Also, I think my bias is partly because that's the car that broke in half and killed Ken Miles, which has always pissed me off.

But yes, amazing car. Foyt-Gurney!



EDIT - Also, wasn't there something about Ford getting out of race team management after they have proved their point with the Mark IV? The team went to John Wyer, who went back to the Lola-based chassis...is that right?

He brought with him Gulf Oil sponsorship, so we have the famous Gulf blue GT40s. Porsche hired him after that, and he brought Gulf blue to the 917s, although it was the Porsche family-sponsored red & white car that won. Wyer won some Spas / Daytonas / Sebrings in Gulf blue 917s I think.

[LateFan]

I can answer some things! :D

First, that's not a Porsche, it's a Ferrari! It's a 365 P2 with a special body by Drogo. It was nicknamed the "white elephant" for obvious reasons.

No way!


Second, #15 is a different car. That livery (with the tartan stripe) was a trademark of the British Racing Partnership, founded by Stirling Moss's father and his racing manager. He never drove the car because of the accident like you mentioned. Also, if I'm not mistaken, that looks like it's a Series 2 which is extremely rare even by 250 standards.

That's who I think UDT / Laystall is, the BRP. Can there be two in that color?? I didn't think so. Did you see this bit?...
"The GTO (Moss's car) did race at the Circuit de la Sarthe in ’62 with Innes Ireland and Masten Gregory sharing driving duties, but it didn’t finish, dropping out of the race with electrical problems after 165 laps. Ireland went on to pilot 3505GT to a win the 1962 Tourist Trophy at Goodwood, and the car also captured a few race and hillclimb titles over the next couple of years."


Also, my father worked on those two 365GTB/4 Daytonas in that one picture.

NO WAY!!

Also also, I think it's an absolute tragedy how underappreciated the MkIV GT40 is. It makes the regular GT40 look like a Flintstones-mobile by comparison.

[ELVA164]

I can answer some things! :D

First, that's not a Porsche, it's a Ferrari! It's a 365 P2 with a special body by Drogo. It was nicknamed the "white elephant" for obvious reasons.

Second, #15 is a different car. That livery (with the tartan stripe) was a trademark of the British Racing Partnership, founded by Stirling Moss's father and his racing manager. He never drove the car because of the accident like you mentioned. Also, if I'm not mistaken, that looks like it's a Series 2 which is extremely rare even by 250 standards.

Also, my father worked on those two 365GTB/4 Daytonas in that one picture.

Also also, I think it's an absolute tragedy how underappreciated the MkIV GT40 is. It makes the regular GT40 look like a Flintstones-mobile by comparison.