Obama Campaign Theatrics --- woman faints @ rallies a scam?

[LINUS]

Socialized health care would push me to make that much more $$$ to continue private heath care. Luckily, I'm single/no kids - so even decent health coverage isn't as much $$$ as some people play it up to be.

You just opened the Pandora's Box of reasons I can't vote for anyone willing to entertain that idea as good to the overall health of this country. Socialized healthcare will permanently change the US, and not for the better.


Yes, the rich get better care. Go figure out a way to make enough so you have those docs. Simple enough.

Dave: it's all good. I'm going to go see it right now - never heard this one.

[DarkWing6]

plan's are over-rated. :) dubya survived 8yrs and he has no fucking clue how to even tie his own shoe-laces

I don't think you have a clue either.

[DarkWing6]

Look, I am not drinking from the Obama Kool-Aid bowl. His plan is no less of a joke than the Bush tax cuts.

I have not seen in my lifetime a candidate who generated more interest and excitement than Obama. At the same time, I am not sure I have seen one who does a better job of talking so much and saying so little.

His whole "just words" thing he lifted off of the Mass governor is a perfect example. Gee, "Yes we Can" . . . Can what????

No matter who ends up in the Oval office, it will continue to be about whose palms get greased, not what makes economic sense. Big pharma, big oil, big ag.business,etc, etc will still come out good, no matter who is in power.

Not if you vote for some one that wants to remove the government from business. Oh ya, you all though Ron Paul was crazy. Now you are singing his songs.


EDIT - And I agree with what you are saying about Obama. He is an excellent speaker, but sooner or later he is going to need to add some substance. He added in his speech in Houston and shot himself in the foot.

[uofom3]

Not if you vote for some one that wants to remove the government from business. Oh ya, you all though Ron Paul was crazy. Now you are singing his songs.

Ron Paul wasn't entirely crazy, he just backed some things that will never be adopted again (Goldstandard, for instance). He seems crazy libertarian, which is something that I don't have a personal problem with (entirely).

[rwh11385]

Yes, the rich get better care.

Better someone does than it not exist. Without $$ to go above and beyond, there wouldn't be real incentive for R&D and new procedures.

Look at Magic Johnson, very alive and well. Someday maybe everyone with HIV/AIDS will be able to afford the cocktail of drugs he is on.

[uofom3]

Better someone does than it not exist. Without $$ to go above and beyond, there wouldn't be real incentive for R&D and new procedures.

Look at Magic Johnson, very alive and well. Someday maybe everyone with HIV/AIDS will be able to afford the cocktail of drugs he is on.

exactly.

You know how the government could save a load of cash that gets dumped into the healthcare industry? Spend about 5 billion dollars on cancer research. The long term net savings of curing the disease would be so large we can't even fathom (particularly as the baby boom generation ages). I don't know the exact figures of what is spent on this annually (I will research this before making further assertions) but when you look at what you net down for the future - a few billlion would be a drop in the proverbial bucket. I think I read somewhere a few years back that for X billion - they could cure cancer within 10 years.

This is no different than companies mandating no tobacco use, or exercise regeims for it's employees. They do it as preventative cost maintenance, and offer programs to help get people off smoking and loose weight. If the government wants to invest in our healthcare future - start with cancer; not a socialized healthcare system to when little timmy has a runny nose he can go get told to rest and take advil for his fever on the taxpayers nickle.

[rwh11385]

The National Cancer Institute (NCI), a component of the National Institutes of Health, is the Nation’s principal agency for cancer research. As a Federal Government research agency, the Institute receives its funds from the U.S. Congress...

The NCI’s total budget for Fiscal Year 2005 was $4.83 billion. The NCI will invest an estimated $4.79 billion during Fiscal Year 2006. The budget is expected to decrease to $4.75 billion in Fiscal Year 2007. Other Federal agencies, state and local governments, voluntary organizations, industry, and private institutions also spend a substantial amount of money on cancer-related research and services.

It compared this European funding to US spending for the same period and found that collectively, the European countries spent EUR 1.43 billion on public cancer research compared to EUR 3.6 billion spent by the US National Cancer Institute. This amounted to EUR 2.56 per person, compared with EUR 17.63 per person in the US. As a percentage of GDP, the US spent four times as much as was the average in Europe.

[uofom3]

The National Cancer Institute (NCI), a component of the National Institutes of Health, is the Nation’s principal agency for cancer research. As a Federal Government research agency, the Institute receives its funds from the U.S. Congress...

The NCI’s total budget for Fiscal Year 2005 was $4.83 billion. The NCI will invest an estimated $4.79 billion during Fiscal Year 2006. The budget is expected to decrease to $4.75 billion in Fiscal Year 2007. Other Federal agencies, state and local governments, voluntary organizations, industry, and private institutions also spend a substantial amount of money on cancer-related research and services.

It compared this European funding to US spending for the same period and found that collectively, the European countries spent EUR 1.43 billion on public cancer research compared to EUR 3.6 billion spent by the US National Cancer Institute. This amounted to EUR 2.56 per person, compared with EUR 17.63 per person in the US. As a percentage of GDP, the US spent four times as much as was the average in Europe.

Heeter is a great wing man.

Spend more then I guess (wait... did I just say that?). Many forms of cancer are becomming manageable, detection is getting better, and life expectancy is increasing... maybe this is a government spending program that actually WORKS. And again... what's 10 billion dollars in a 13.5 trillion dollar spending program? Healthcare is more than a 2 trillion dollar industry cost-wise to the consumers of healthcare... I wonder what portion of that is related to cancer (both directly and indirectly)?

I am getting far-a-field here... The point being that there are better things to spend money on then an ultimately shitty healthcare system.

[DarkWing6]

Ron Paul wasn't entirely crazy, he just backed some things that will never be adopted again (Goldstandard, for instance). He seems crazy libertarian, which is something that I don't have a personal problem with (entirely).

Not that we should start discussing Ron Paul, but he represented the Constitution and a president that would actually care about our economy enough to do things like remove the government from it. None of his ideas on anything were as out there and damaging to America as Obama's plans like universal health care and these economic "plans" he has.

[Dave]

Not if you vote for some one that wants to remove the government from business.

As opposed to government being an arm of and ATM for it, as it is now?

Oh ya, you all though Ron Paul was crazy. Now you are singing his songs.

I met Dr. Paul in 2003 and had the chance to talk with him a bit. He's not crazy. Mind you, when I looked around the room to see the folks who also were there to hear him speak, I kind of wondered . . . :D

[Hallen]

People like Ron Paul don't get into Presidential campaigns to win. They get into them to see if they can get some of their policies and ideas implemented by whoever does win. Props to the guy for having the fortitude to go for it.

There is plenty wrong with our current economic systems. They should be scrutinized. It is another thing entirely to stick your wrench into the moving gears hoping to fix something but not knowing exactly what will happen when that wrench hits a gear though.

[LINUS]

I'd said something about rich getting better care...

Better someone does than it not exist. Without $$ to go above and beyond, there wouldn't be real incentive for R&D and new procedures.

Look at Magic Johnson, very alive and well. Someday maybe everyone with HIV/AIDS will be able to afford the cocktail of drugs he is on.

....and I hope you saw where that's exactly my point too.

We'd be in a world of hurt if you had Union doctors......Oh, wait - that's socialized healthcare. We can see how it works or doesn't right there.

We all know that socializing anything kills the desire to exceed the previous guy. Socialized trade labor (Unions) prove it - you only are expected to do whatever the jobsite slackmonkey does. Personal initiative is faaar from rewarded, nearly frowned on.

Don't get me wrong - Unions are a very helpful tool if it was restructured as a bargaining collective for benefits & payscale, BUT set up a sliding scale for talent & initiative. That scale means money in case anyone doesn't get where that was going. Do that & get the Unions behind the ideal that their members would benefit in the pocketbook - We could once again get really competetive in the marketplace.

We as a nation need to stay competative & keep our "money driven standard" instead of just rolling over & basically commiting national suicide by socializing anything. I'm just of the opinion that if we metaphorically "just go lay down on a cot & wait our turn" (my idea of socialized anything) - then you become just as impotent as any country before us who has done the same thing.

We are rooted as a country under the ideal that you come, you act, you try. You don't settle for wherever you were from, but you need to conform to the new country's ideals. Don't just come here & look for the closest warm cot, get up & go get what you want.

Socialized countries automatically are part of the economical Special Olympics in my book.

It's not just economic situations - nature does the same thing too. Good DNA is rewarded with hot chicks & sucess in their world too.

[Dave]

Part of the problem with our society is that people are so inconsistent in their political beliefs.

The "conservative" Republicans want government out of business, but want to legislate everyone's individual morality. (Abortion, drugs, gay marriage). And they want us to give up our individual liberties to boot. (No warrant wiretaps, FBI to scour our emails, etc etc). And don't get me started on the "pro-lifers" who are for the death penalty.

The "liberal" Democrats want government out of people's personal lives, but want it to provide all of the social benefits. (Income security, healthcare, etc).

Our political parties are so inherently fucked up in this way it is a wonder we are not worse off.

The Republican primaries have been a great example of this. Look at the McCain-Huckabee contrast. Granted, McCain is not the most conservative guy in any respect, but he has never been a darling of the Bible thumping crowd. Those people will continue to throw their votes at Huckabee despite the fact that he cannot win the nomination and would have zero chance of winning the general election. In fact, in those circles, they are likely to sit this one out in the fall unless they have one of their American Taliban candidates down the ticket.

McCain has to either somehow tap into that base by picking a wingnut running mate, or has to hope that some big event happens that lets him exploit the fear of Americnas the way Rove/Bush did it in 2004.

Honestly, I think he is too principled to do either of those things. I'd really like to see someone come out of this who can unite the nation and undo the divisive politics that have really become dominant since 2000.

[Sean]

This thread is so so SO awesome!

I'd almost tell anyone that wants to learn to read it, some great information in here.

Couple things to add - basically just agreeing here...I can't believe Obama said that. Raising the min. wage is a way to disaster. AH!

Anyway, I just wanna keep reading, this is great stuff! I almost need to go thru and make cliff notes, so I can remember this stuff when my liberal retarded friends want to get on my case for not wanting Obama or some retarded crap like that. heh

[BenM]

This thread has been very informative to me as well. This will be my first time voting in a presidential election, and the current info here has questioned which political party I want to affiliate myself with. Thanks guys.