Obama Campaign Theatrics --- woman faints @ rallies a scam?

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  • Hallen
    E30 Enthusiast
    • Dec 2007
    • 1008

    #166
    Originally posted by Dave
    Part of the problem with our society is that people are so inconsistent in their political beliefs.

    The "conservative" Republicans want government out of business, but want to legislate everyone's individual morality. (Abortion, drugs, gay marriage). And they want us to give up our individual liberties to boot. (No warrant wiretaps, FBI to scour our emails, etc etc). And don't get me started on the "pro-lifers" who are for the death penalty.

    The "liberal" Democrats want government out of people's personal lives, but want it to provide all of the social benefits. (Income security, healthcare, etc).

    Our political parties are so inherently fucked up in this way it is a wonder we are not worse off.

    The Republican primaries have been a great example of this. Look at the McCain-Huckabee contrast. Granted, McCain is not the most conservative guy in any respect, but he has never been a darling of the Bible thumping crowd. Those people will continue to throw their votes at Huckabee despite the fact that he cannot win the nomination and would have zero chance of winning the general election. In fact, in those circles, they are likely to sit this one out in the fall unless they have one of their American Taliban candidates down the ticket.

    McCain has to either somehow tap into that base by picking a wingnut running mate, or has to hope that some big event happens that lets him exploit the fear of Americnas the way Rove/Bush did it in 2004.

    Honestly, I think he is too principled to do either of those things. I'd really like to see someone come out of this who can unite the nation and undo the divisive politics that have really become dominant since 2000.
    Reductio ad absurdum
    Ok, so we are not arguing here, just pointing out different points of view. But what you have done is taken the grain of the truth and exploded it into the absurd that nobody could agree with except for the absolute fringe cases.

    1) Most republicans want the government out of their lives, period. Minimal interaction is what is desired. However, it does not change the fact that we are a society and are bound by the rules and laws of that society. Sometimes there is a clash between what a small group wants and that desire goes against the will of the greater society. Legislating morality does not work like I had said before in this thread. Most of us do not want to see that. However, it is also a liberal catch fraze anytime somebody is denied doing something that they think they should be able to do.
    The gay marriage thing is about recognition of a chosen lifestyle and the recognition of two other 'sexes' (maybe more if you count transgenders). It is not about the right to get married. Gays can enter into legal and binding contracts and powers of attorney that mimics everything common to marriage except for the small differences in tax tables. It is a slippery slope. Gays have every single right and privilege as the rest of us. There is no difference.

    Drugs are an issue because of their destructive nature. If you are talking about pot, well, it is debatable. Alcohol can be destructive to some, but for most it is safe and reasonable. All other drugs are horribly destructive. The main point is that right now they are against the law because the greater society has deemed them as undesirable. We can debate all day long if legalization of the drugs would fix more problems than keeping them illegal does.

    Abortion should not be a political issue in my opinion, but that is a tough one. Personally, I am mostly opposed to it although there are cases where it is still justified. However, just like the liberals, there are fringes of the conservatives that are extreme. They are the ones that drive this abortion issue. I wish the republicans would just ignore it.

    The liberal Democrats do not want the government out of people's lives, they want government to control everything. They don't think the rest of us have the intelligence to take responsibility for our own lives. The government is their religion and they are as fervent about that as the Taliban you equate with the religious right here in America (which is really, horribly unfair and off the mark, btw). Religion (and no, I am not) provides that "father figure" that everybody needs. Extreme liberals do not have that sense. They use government as a substitute. To me, that is far more frightening than JW coming to my door to try and save me.

    The wiretap thing is also blown out of proportion. There are checks and balances. There is still need for some probable cause. Random searches are most likely fruitless and a waste of money, but lets say they did try and listen in on everybody, do you really think anybody would be able to pick up on the fact that you just bought a bag of pot out of the trillions of phone calls every day? Get real. Unless you are doing something devious that triggers some alarm somewhere, you are not going to be singled out. Again, this is one of those liberal catch phrases designed to turn people against law enforcement. I want my privacy too. I don't want the government listening and recording everything I do. But I also have nothing to hide so it wouldn't be a problem for me. Spend some time in the military and you might find out that you have a heck of a lot less privacy and fewer rights than felony prisoners. We make that sacrifice to keep you safe. If the FBI monitors somebody under these so called "wiretap" operations, then so be it. It is a price we all have to pay to maintain our stability and to catch and punish the bad guys. The far left wants their freedom, but they are very unwilling to make any sacrifices to get it. If these procedures start to be abused by and overzealous agent, you can bet they will be stopped and punished as well.


    True conservatives believe in those three tenants that I posted earlier. This means a minimal level of government but it also means that to hold together as a society, we must have government and we must have law. It won't be perfect and it won't satisfy everybody, especially those on the fringes and those with an agenda, but it will satisfy the majority to a greater degree.

    I really don't see how anybody on one had can say the Dems want to stay out of our private lives on one hand, yet that it is perfectly acceptable for them to take my money and give it to some slacker who can't keep job.

    Most of we conservatives really don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home as long as you are not hurting anybody else and as long as you keep it to yourself.

    And finally, we could point to some of the liberal fringe who advocate such things as sexual interaction with children is OK and good for the child, that Al Sharpton is not a bigot, guns are evil and should be banned, that no tree should ever be cut down (even to make the cardboard protest signs used by tree huggers blocking logging roads), etc. There are plenty of fringe cases out there. It is your responsibility to critically analyze those assertions and come to an informed position.

    I am not attacking you btw. I am just questioning your assertions.
    1987 E30 325is
    1999 E46 323i
    RIP 1994 E32 740iL
    oo=[][]=oo

    Comment

    • Funkmasta
      R3V OG
      • May 2004
      • 7185

      #167
      Originally posted by Hallen
      Abortion should not be a political issue in my opinion, but that is a tough one. Personally, I am mostly opposed to it although there are cases where it is still justified. However, just like the liberals, there are fringes of the conservatives that are extreme. They are the ones that drive this abortion issue. I wish the republicans would just ignore it.
      It shouldn't be political, it should just be not-allowed?
      Come on. I have a hard time with this one (and I am quite conservative).

      Think about it...

      a: If you don't agree with abortion, keep the younguns out of the gene pool.

      b: if a girl doesnt want a baby, how good of a mother do you think she will be? No life is better than a miserable life.

      It is not like people use abortion as birth control...
      Joe Funk -- Portland Oregon
      That Guy.
      03 X5. 3 liter obviously.

      Comment

      • Hallen
        E30 Enthusiast
        • Dec 2007
        • 1008

        #168
        Originally posted by Funkmasta
        It shouldn't be political, it should just be not-allowed?
        Come on. I have a hard time with this one (and I am quite conservative).

        Think about it...

        a: If you don't agree with abortion, keep the younguns out of the gene pool.

        b: if a girl doesnt want a baby, how good of a mother do you think she will be? No life is better than a miserable life.

        It is not like people use abortion as birth control...
        I don't really want to go there.
        a: is silly. Are you trying to say that if I don't agree with abortion, that I should lock my kids in a closet so they can't possibly ever have sex? That is obviously unrealistic and since it really only applies to female children, it becomes even more absurd.

        b: adoption is a very real and very worthwhile choice. Also, you may not want a child, but once the inevitable happens, it is your responsibility to care for and love that child. Trust me when I tell you that if you are a good person with a sense of responsibility, you will do just that.

        The decision comes down to if you believe that the instant an egg is fertilized, it is human and has a soul. That is something that is non-provable one way or the other. Either you believe it does have a soul and is therefore a living breathing human being and therefore to abort it is to commit murder. Or, you don't believe it is human until it is born... er or is it 6 months, or anytime after the first trimester or ... what. Anyway, somewhere in there it becomes human and should not be killed.

        That is why I don't want it to be a political debate. There is no answer for this question. Only personal belief. If you push the government to make a decision on this kind of thing where there is no answer, don't be surprised if the decision that comes back is not what you wanted. If the government errs on the safe side, there will be no abortion. If they say it is allowable, you might not like the terms.

        I guess it is cowardice on my part, but trying to determine if abortion is murder or not is something that I just can't answer. My preferred stance is that abortion should be avoided as much as possible and abstinence and prevention promoted as much as possible. But I am also unwilling to make that decision for someone else.
        1987 E30 325is
        1999 E46 323i
        RIP 1994 E32 740iL
        oo=[][]=oo

        Comment

        • uofom3
          R3V Elite
          • Jan 2004
          • 5392

          #169
          Originally posted by Dave
          Part of the problem with our society is that people are so inconsistent in their political beliefs.

          The "conservative" Republicans want government out of business, but want to legislate everyone's individual morality. (Abortion, drugs, gay marriage). And they want us to give up our individual liberties to boot. (No warrant wiretaps, FBI to scour our emails, etc etc). And don't get me started on the "pro-lifers" who are for the death penalty.

          The "liberal" Democrats want government out of people's personal lives, but want it to provide all of the social benefits. (Income security, healthcare, etc).

          Our political parties are so inherently fucked up in this way it is a wonder we are not worse off.

          The Republican primaries have been a great example of this. Look at the McCain-Huckabee contrast. Granted, McCain is not the most conservative guy in any respect, but he has never been a darling of the Bible thumping crowd. Those people will continue to throw their votes at Huckabee despite the fact that he cannot win the nomination and would have zero chance of winning the general election. In fact, in those circles, they are likely to sit this one out in the fall unless they have one of their American Taliban candidates down the ticket.

          McCain has to either somehow tap into that base by picking a wingnut running mate, or has to hope that some big event happens that lets him exploit the fear of Americnas the way Rove/Bush did it in 2004.

          Honestly, I think he is too principled to do either of those things. I'd really like to see someone come out of this who can unite the nation and undo the divisive politics that have really become dominant since 2000.
          This thread is excellent.

          I'll start with Dave.

          - The most inconsistent people regarding beliefs is the democratic party - fringe left particularly. Moderate demo's, just like moderate repub's, are not nearly so inconsistant as the radicals. This is pretty obvious as the more extreme you are in an inter-related dynamic environment; the most open you are to contradiction and hypocracy when you start making concrete assertions.

          - You're confusing conservatism with the religous right. It's a stereotype. Before I get that slung back at me, I've been very fair to the Dems and made a point of not making this adversarial. Things like abortion, drugs, gay marriage are things that primarily concern the major religious sectors. I could care less of homo's want to plug each other in the ass, and if you want to give them tax benefits as a "civil union" go for it. Just don't call it mariage because it isn't, and let them do what they want behind closed doors. The war on drugs is a war that won't be won. This truly is not the repubs or dems fault. To win the war on drugs, you have to get SERIOUS and by that I mean military tactics on people inside this country at a major level and getting serious about the business. Lib's don't want to hurt anyone with serious action, repubs can't agree with the libs on how to handle it. So, it's a cluster fuck and it will remain that way. I'm not talking about pot, nor am I in any way suggesting that drug use is acceptable (heavy drugs particularly).

          - Regarding the "rights that are being taken away" - that's bull. Do you have something to hide? I could give a shit less what they look at of mine for national security purposes. To educate my self on word developments, I've cruised the internet to find a lot of information. I'm positive I've been to sites and used google search terms that have put me on a least once watch list. But if they want to come scan my computer, look at my porn, and steal my term papers - fine with me. I've got nothing to hide, and nothing but good intentions. They aren't trying to get me for pirated music, they are trying to see if i'm coooking up something much more serious. I have no problem with this sort of thing - and IMO you really only have a problem if you've got something to hide.

          -I will post an entirely seperate post for pro-lifers on the death penalty- that's a hell of an interesting topic.

          - do NOT associate the conservative party with the bible thumpers soley, PLEASE. They are just as nuts as the lunatic left. You are a self-proclaimed demo, but you're obviously not a fringe lune. I'm a conservative, but I'm not thumping my bible, screaming kill the fags beause they are evil and sinful. You know what I mean? It's an extreme example.

          - I applaud the remainder of your post - I really appreciate your balanced approach to the discussion. It has been a great contribution.
          PNW Crew
          90 m3
          06 m5

          Comment

          • uofom3
            R3V Elite
            • Jan 2004
            • 5392

            #170
            Originally posted by Sean
            This thread is so so SO awesome!

            I'd almost tell anyone that wants to learn to read it, some great information in here.

            Couple things to add - basically just agreeing here...I can't believe Obama said that. Raising the min. wage is a way to disaster. AH!

            Anyway, I just wanna keep reading, this is great stuff! I almost need to go thru and make cliff notes, so I can remember this stuff when my liberal retarded friends want to get on my case for not wanting Obama or some retarded crap like that. heh
            Originally posted by BenM
            This thread has been very informative to me as well. This will be my first time voting in a presidential election, and the current info here has questioned which political party I want to affiliate myself with. Thanks guys.

            This was the entire purpose behind my checking this thread over and over again.

            I'm very interested in politics, and really enjoy discussing this stuff.

            If someone can read this and start to develop some critical thinking and learn more about how the world works, then the time spent has been worth it. Hopefully more than those who vocalized have read this and feel the same way.
            PNW Crew
            90 m3
            06 m5

            Comment

            • Hallen
              E30 Enthusiast
              • Dec 2007
              • 1008

              #171
              Originally posted by uofom3
              This was the entire purpose behind my checking this thread over and over again.

              I'm very interested in politics, and really enjoy discussing this stuff.

              If someone can read this and start to develop some critical thinking and learn more about how the world works, then the time spent has been worth it. Hopefully more than those who vocalized have read this and feel the same way.
              Amen... uh wait, I mean, right on! :D

              If you have read this whole thread and it has sparked you to examine your beliefs and why you have those beliefs then something very good has happened. All I want is for people to really examine and question and seek real answers instead of just following the herd. If you end up with a different conclusion than what I hold and you did so through informed intelligence, then good on you.
              1987 E30 325is
              1999 E46 323i
              RIP 1994 E32 740iL
              oo=[][]=oo

              Comment

              • rwh11385
                lance_entities
                • Oct 2003
                • 18403

                #172
                I'm not pro choice. I'm pro killing babies.

                Comment

                • Dave
                  E30 RAT
                  • Nov 2003
                  • 11675

                  #173
                  Originally posted by lance_entities
                  I'm not pro choice. I'm pro killing babies.
                  Shop Vac is your friend.

                  And I did not equate all Rs with the bible thumping variety, Ted. But you have to admit, the Bush regime relied a lot on that base. They are part of the group under the Republican tent. I think they are a big problem, just like I think the fringe on the liberal side is.

                  I am sorry, but the "what have you got to hide" argument has not and will never fly with me. Sure, when I get on a plane and it is a gennuine safety issue, ok. But the dragnet that scans our emails, reviews our buying habits (yes this is done), and overall has become more of a surveillance society, has gone too far.
                  Current Cars
                  2014 M235i
                  2009 R56 Cooper S
                  1998 M3
                  1997 M3

                  Comment

                  • 1991 318is
                    Mod Crazy
                    • Dec 2005
                    • 786

                    #174
                    Originally posted by Hallen
                    Amen... uh wait, I mean, right on! :D

                    If you have read this whole thread and it has sparked you to examine your beliefs and why you have those beliefs then something very good has happened. All I want is for people to really examine and question and seek real answers instead of just following the herd. If you end up with a different conclusion than what I hold and you did so through informed intelligence, then good on you.
                    That has to be the most altruistic justification for hijacking a thread ever. Campaign theatrics, indeed - oh no, I think I'm going to faint!

                    Comment

                    • Funkmasta
                      R3V OG
                      • May 2004
                      • 7185

                      #175
                      Originally posted by Hallen
                      I don't really want to go there.
                      a: is silly. Are you trying to say that if I don't agree with abortion, that I should lock my kids in a closet so they can't possibly ever have sex? That is obviously unrealistic and since it really only applies to female children, it becomes even more absurd.

                      b: adoption is a very real and very worthwhile choice. Also, you may not want a child, but once the inevitable happens, it is your responsibility to care for and love that child. Trust me when I tell you that if you are a good person with a sense of responsibility, you will do just that.

                      The decision comes down to if you believe that the instant an egg is fertilized, it is human and has a soul. That is something that is non-provable one way or the other. Either you believe it does have a soul and is therefore a living breathing human being and therefore to abort it is to commit murder. Or, you don't believe it is human until it is born... er or is it 6 months, or anytime after the first trimester or ... what. Anyway, somewhere in there it becomes human and should not be killed.

                      That is why I don't want it to be a political debate. There is no answer for this question. Only personal belief. If you push the government to make a decision on this kind of thing where there is no answer, don't be surprised if the decision that comes back is not what you wanted. If the government errs on the safe side, there will be no abortion. If they say it is allowable, you might not like the terms.

                      I guess it is cowardice on my part, but trying to determine if abortion is murder or not is something that I just can't answer. My preferred stance is that abortion should be avoided as much as possible and abstinence and prevention promoted as much as possible. But I am also unwilling to make that decision for someone else.
                      a: Sorry for being unclear, that's not what I intended.
                      Beliefs LARGELY are nurtured. If you don't like abortion, allow it. The mothers that choose it will clearly not be passing on their beliefs to their children. It will even itself out. No woman WANTS an abortion. Zero zilch nada. And no SANE woman would choose abortion as a birth control method.
                      Obviously late term abortions

                      b: adoption IS a very worthwhile choice... kind of.
                      There is still a surplus of orphans that do not get adopted, and honestly, I question the REAL values that the adopters hold.

                      c: As long as abortion is legal, it can be studied and administered in a way that is safe. Girls are going to do it anyway.

                      Abortion is ALWAYS going to be frowned upon. It is not going to be something that is just accepted as a norm.

                      Sorry for the threadjack... just wanted to clarify
                      Joe Funk -- Portland Oregon
                      That Guy.
                      03 X5. 3 liter obviously.

                      Comment

                      • Funkmasta
                        R3V OG
                        • May 2004
                        • 7185

                        #176
                        Originally posted by Dave
                        reviews our buying habits (yes this is done), and overall has become more of a surveillance society, has gone too far.
                        I DO like the government to stay out of my life as much as possible, but their PRIMARY responsibility is to keep us safe. If that means that they need to have my emails go through a random filter for a random keyword, so be it.

                        Where I do have a minor issue is that, the MOST dangerous people are smart. Well smarter than the government bots. However, in the age of the internet, the Patriot act is very necessary... Possibly could have saved many at Columbine.
                        Joe Funk -- Portland Oregon
                        That Guy.
                        03 X5. 3 liter obviously.

                        Comment

                        • joshh
                          R3V OG
                          • Aug 2004
                          • 6195

                          #177
                          Bottom line....we are fucked. All three we have to choose from will lead this country further down the shit hole.
                          Hillary is a joke, don't even need to get started with her.
                          Obama is no leader. Liberal as hell.
                          McCain is Bush but with much better speech skills. But will also lead us down the same exact path.
                          Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

                          "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

                          ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

                          Comment

                          • rwh11385
                            lance_entities
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 18403

                            #178
                            Although I would prefer shaved, I have no real complaint about Bush as long as it's an option vs. Clinton.

                            Comment

                            • uofom3
                              R3V Elite
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 5392

                              #179
                              Originally posted by joshh
                              Bottom line....we are fucked. All three we have to choose from will lead this country further down the shit hole.
                              Hillary is a joke, don't even need to get started with her.
                              Obama is no leader. Liberal as hell.
                              McCain is Bush but with much better speech skills. But will also lead us down the same exact path.
                              I'm sorry but this is worthless. Hillary IS a joke, but more sensible than Obama. Obama can speak like a preacher, but his speach means nothing. McCain is a flaming liberal in direct comparison to the incumbant. This post just really doesn't solve anything, or add anything to an otherwise informed discussion. I guess it's not my place to be the judge/jury/executioner on what is sound.... but please contribute something more than cliche and obligatory comments.
                              PNW Crew
                              90 m3
                              06 m5

                              Comment

                              • h0lmes

                                #180
                                Originally posted by uofom3
                                This thread is excellent.

                                I'll start with Dave.

                                - The most inconsistent people regarding beliefs is the democratic party - fringe left particularly. Moderate demo's, just like moderate repub's, are not nearly so inconsistant as the radicals. This is pretty obvious as the more extreme you are in an inter-related dynamic environment; the most open you are to contradiction and hypocracy when you start making concrete assertions.

                                - You're confusing conservatism with the religous right. It's a stereotype. Before I get that slung back at me, I've been very fair to the Dems and made a point of not making this adversarial. Things like abortion, drugs, gay marriage are things that primarily concern the major religious sectors. I could care less of homo's want to plug each other in the ass, and if you want to give them tax benefits as a "civil union" go for it. Just don't call it mariage because it isn't, and let them do what they want behind closed doors. The war on drugs is a war that won't be won. This truly is not the repubs or dems fault. To win the war on drugs, you have to get SERIOUS and by that I mean military tactics on people inside this country at a major level and getting serious about the business. Lib's don't want to hurt anyone with serious action, repubs can't agree with the libs on how to handle it. So, it's a cluster fuck and it will remain that way. I'm not talking about pot, nor am I in any way suggesting that drug use is acceptable (heavy drugs particularly).

                                - Regarding the "rights that are being taken away" - that's bull. Do you have something to hide? I could give a shit less what they look at of mine for national security purposes. To educate my self on word developments, I've cruised the internet to find a lot of information. I'm positive I've been to sites and used google search terms that have put me on a least once watch list. But if they want to come scan my computer, look at my porn, and steal my term papers - fine with me. I've got nothing to hide, and nothing but good intentions. They aren't trying to get me for pirated music, they are trying to see if i'm coooking up something much more serious. I have no problem with this sort of thing - and IMO you really only have a problem if you've got something to hide.

                                -I will post an entirely seperate post for pro-lifers on the death penalty- that's a hell of an interesting topic.

                                - do NOT associate the conservative party with the bible thumpers soley, PLEASE. They are just as nuts as the lunatic left. You are a self-proclaimed demo, but you're obviously not a fringe lune. I'm a conservative, but I'm not thumping my bible, screaming kill the fags beause they are evil and sinful. You know what I mean? It's an extreme example.

                                - I applaud the remainder of your post - I really appreciate your balanced approach to the discussion. It has been a great contribution.
                                As a Libertarian, I mostly agree with what you have to say. I don't agree with your stance on privacy though. Although I really don't have anything to hide, it is simply within my constitutional rights to expect my personal belongings and information to be kept private from anyone, including the government. Sure, a quick baggage search here, or a quick search of some medical records there may seem harmless but what is next? At what point does it stop being about protecting us from terrorists, and start being about keeping us in check. We are all part of a very sophisticated economic machine and the government has a lot of interest in knowing who we are, where we are and what we are doing at all times. Privacy = freedom. Without privacy, you don't have freedom.

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