Obama Campaign Theatrics --- woman faints @ rallies a scam?

[Funkmasta]

Regarding today's "scandal" with McCain...

30 second cliff notes?

[Funkmasta]

Also, the statement, "Somehow got caught up in an adjustable mortage" is just laughable.

...or a severe education problem to begin with

[uofom3]

Regarding today's "scandal" with McCain...

He denies it (obviously).

She denies it (somewhat obviously, but somewhat surprising).

NY Times is the most liberally biased paper in the country (not surprising).

They ran a 9 Page article about it (which I have not consumed all of yet).

Their sources are "going to remain anonymous".

She is going to sue the NY Times for slander, apparently.

I can't support this kind of behavior, because I have slammed Clinton for doing this as well. He's in a position of influence, and should be held to a higher standard of conduct. It would be pretty lefty and hypocritical of me to stand by McCain after bashing Clinton.

SO - I will reserve judgement about this until there are more facts such as sources released, affidavites filed, etc.

This is a damn shame however - if this is true, Obama will 99% likely be the next president, and we can blame the downfall of the most free, successful, and stable country the planet has ever seen on McCains penis.

[uofom3]

OK guys, something I was thinking about last night.

Back to that snipit from his speech.

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."

Now explain to me how he is not doing the same thing to the American people that the "predatory lenders" did to this woman. He is taking advantage of short-sighted Americans that think, "Oh, wow, no taxes for me and I can stick it to the man. Count me in!" Then a year or two down the line when there are no jobs and our economy is in a real recession (I think we are in a minor one right now, but if this happens, you ain't seen nothing yet).

Years from now we will have speeches like, "Years ago the American people somehow got into a tax system that....." :D <--even though it is not funny and is true and sad.

That is the entire basis for the democratic party. Pray on peoples weakenesses and problems. Promise to solve them, and ultimately solve nothing.

Anyone notice that what Hillary is campaigning on now is the same stuff she campaigned for in 92 with Bill? That means the she never accomplished ANYTHING.

There are proven ways to solve just about every problem you can think of; the problem is most all of the true solutions aren't easy (far from easy). This is true in life - it's easier to not go to college and get a job than it is to go to school and stick it out another 4 or 5 years. It's easier to buy a 45 in. tv, lease a car, and rent and apartmetn than watch your 25 inch shitbox and drive a 20 y/o beaterized car while saving money to put a down payment on a house.

Your post also brings up the concept of generational poverty. My mom has been an edcuator for years, and when I talk to her she almost always brings up something along these lines and how it frustrates her that "the people these people go home to don't provide the support (and I"m not talking financial) that is necessary to move forward". I'm assuming that most people here have heard of generational poverty, and understand the concept so I'm not going to detail it - but it ultimately ties directly into what the Dem's and Obama in particular are praying on.

Also, the statement, "Somehow got caught up in an adjustable mortage" is just laughable.

[sticksdaman]

best thread ive read in a long time

Although my views havent changed, I do appreciate the fact that this thread was conducted with such a minimal amount of name calling and a large amount of facts to support opinions.

[DarkWing6]

OK guys, something I was thinking about last night.

Back to that snipit from his speech.

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."

Now explain to me how he is not doing the same thing to the American people that the "predatory lenders" did to this woman. He is taking advantage of short-sighted Americans that think, "Oh, wow, no taxes for me and I can stick it to the man. Count me in!" Then a year or two down the line when there are no jobs and our economy is in a real recession (I think we are in a minor one right now, but if this happens, you ain't seen nothing yet).

Years from now we will have speeches like, "Years ago the American people somehow got into a tax system that....." :D <--even though it is not funny and is true and sad.

[1991 318is]

It's along way from those people fainting at political rallies isn't it?

[uofom3]

You're absolutely right, Hallen. Thanks for going into more depth about the subject - I didn't really want to go that far for time sake ;)

What it comes down to with all of this for me personally is - if someone is going to go vote for a given candidate, do it with all of the facts on the table.

If you really love Obama, then do what you have to do. Just do it by being cognitively dissonant as opposed to ignorant - If logic won out, you wouldn't need hope because you would have already arrived at solutions.

[Hallen]

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

It is tough and I do feel bad for anybody who got scammed into something they couldn't deal with.
Part of the problem is the compensation systems used for real estate transactions. The realtor gets paid a percentage of the home sale amount. It is in their best interest to keep sales prices high.
The loan officer often gets paid on the total amount of the loans they issue. It is in their interest to keep sales prices high. It is also in their best interest to issue ARM loans to people who couldn't afford the payments if the rates go up at all. It is all about making the loan, not about the risk or about the customer.
The lending institution makes money on the total amount of the loan. It is in their best interest to keep the sales price high. They don't care about the risk because they will almost immediately sell the paper to a larger institution and they are absolved of the risk.
The State regulators and assessors have an interest in keeping the sales prices high because it drives up property prices and therefore property taxes (in states that have property tax).
It is a situation where nobody was in control because of how all these people and institutions get compensated.
The institutions and real estate funds that get left holding the bag have nobody to blame but themselves because they should have known the paper they were buying was risky.
This is a tough thing. Should the government step in and crack down on this stuff? How? What laws are in place to keep something like this from happening? Should there be laws?
Probably not. If the brokerage houses had set acceptable risk levels and had solid oversight, it would have been self policing. If the compensation packages were done differently where it is in a loan officer's best interests to not make overly risky loans, then it could have changed things.
Free markets and no governmental intervention will fail at times too. But it is the exception that does not make the rule.

It is pretty dumb. The only the holder of the mortgage can do is try and go back and refinance the loans to some of these people and try and keep them in their homes because that is the only way they can keep from taking a huge hit.

But I also bet that a lot of people who were getting these loans were speculators who only wanted to keep the property for a short while and the roll it over. All that stuff they teach in those "how to make money fast" seminars. I really don't have any sympathy for them.

[uofom3]

though... maybe there will be some cheap properties that pop up over the next year or two. ;)

those of us with real assets will be having a field day.

[Funkmasta]

though... maybe there will be some cheap properties that pop up over the next year or two. ;)

[Funkmasta]

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

It is a VERY shitty situation, but the answer may be a government loan? The answer is not to bail out.

Mortgage brokers are the new "used car salesmen". It has been known for a LONG time that you need to carefully review any loan document, as many of them are shady.

[uofom3]

Who in the hell would work in a sweatshop? There are plenty of jobs available. If you don't like where you work you are free to find another job.

There does NOT need to be any intervention of any kind, except the kind that blocks filth being passed as truth.

Free market economies work great - you're right. The job market is a free market, and will set its own appropriate fees and wages for various jobs.

[uofom3]

I did not want to bring this up cause I hate complaining like this, but does this kind of stuff piss people off as much as it does me?

Taken from the speech

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."


Could someone please take responsibility for their own actions!?!!? Does her having blind twins change anything about how she was dumb and didn't think past next month's payment? I'm not trying to single people out cause I do feel for her, but....really? That is where my tax dollars are going.

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

[Funkmasta]

Are you telling me that we should have sweatshops and let people work for however low the company is willing to pay? There needs to be intervention because American citizens would be exploited. This was rampant all during the Industrial age. But hey, at least the fat cats were living good.

Who in the hell would work in a sweatshop? There are plenty of jobs available. If you don't like where you work you are free to find another job.

There does NOT need to be any intervention of any kind, except the kind that blocks filth being passed as truth.