Obama Campaign Theatrics --- woman faints @ rallies a scam?

[rwh11385]

I understand skill sets, but I was talking about physical work. It does take a certain amount of conditioning and knowledge to be an efficient 'ditch digger.'

What knowledge is required for being a ditch digger? How to use a shovel?
Compare that with the knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform skilled work and you can find out how there is a great premium for educated, experienced, and capable people. Giving people extra money for work most people can do isn't what markets are about.

I just feel like there should be some level of 'fairness' in some situations. That's why I support some government intervention.

Liberty is in the eye of the beholder. For something to be gained, something must also be lost. The problem is finding that middle ground.

Read Irene van Staveren's The Values of Economics. (Feminist Economist??) anyway, she discusses how people have a desire for liberty (freedom of market), justice (fairness of society), and care (interpersonal relationships). You'd connect well. And Stone's "The Market and the Polis" chapter wherever while you are at it.

We cannot as a nation confuse our desire to help others less fortunate with the needs for the economy to work efficiently through market transactions which should not be interfered with. Fucking up the economy and creating inflation to try to deal with price increases is stupid. That is no way to help anyone, let alone people not worth the little they are paid. Rich people will survive, but maybe they don't have as much as they though to give back any longer...

There is a middle ground. It is the market. Both parties agree to the deal. That is the middle ground.

EDIT - And if one party is too greedy (poor can be greedy too) then they wont agree to terms and wont get any supply for their demand. Supply and demand goes both ways.

teehee, it seems sooooo simple. what do people not understand about economics? and why are some of those people running for president?

[Hallen]

Move to Sweden if you have a problem with the US here. The income disparity before redistribution is the same, but everyone is leveled out, no matter how smart/skilled/hard you work. The dumb lazy uneducated people will benefit from your success, YAY socialism. NOT

You guys are bringing a tear to my eyes. I am so proud... er... even though I don't really know any of you.

My son, who is probably about the same age as a lot of you, made me so proud last night. He equated Obama with socialism and said that socialism sucks. He just started paying taxes on his earnings and didn't like it too much.

I was so proud of him. I, am obviously pretty conservative, especially on financial / economics issues. But, I have never told my son that he has to vote republican or tried to force his position on anything. He just came up with this stuff on his own. I get the feeling that many of his friends feel the same way.

With no incentive to do better, to work hard, to achieve anything, what is the point? I don't want to be paid the same as some person who does not put out the effort that I do or achieves the results that I do. That is patently unjust. It would lead to either me moving on, or me lowering my standards because being good just doesn't pay.

Just look at a high percentage of your typical Government worker... there is very little incentive for them to do a good job and they are virtually impossible to fire. You end up with apathy.

I also don't understand this hatred of corporations. I don't know what the percentage is, but in the private sector I would bet that 80% of us work for some form of corporation. I don't want my company taxed into submission. That means I won't get raises. That means I will be over worked because we can't hire anybody else. It means that we will have to raise prices to compensate and we will sell less and contribute to inflation. Plus, it will get harder for us to compete against foreign companies... especially those socialized countries that subsidize their companies.

I will have to go read Obama's speech, but if what was written here is what he said, OMG. You see why he has stayed away from anything of substance. As soon as we get to his core ideas, we find just how much of a danger he is. He is trying to buy votes by telling people he will directly give them money by taking it away from those who have actually earned it. I simply do not understand the train of thought that actually leads people to believe that it is a good thing to do that.

[DarkWing6]

I did not want to bring this up cause I hate complaining like this, but does this kind of stuff piss people off as much as it does me?

Taken from the speech

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."


Could someone please take responsibility for their own actions!?!!? Does her having blind twins change anything about how she was dumb and didn't think past next month's payment? I'm not trying to single people out cause I do feel for her, but....really? That is where my tax dollars are going.

[Hallen]

Yeah, but it plays the heart strings of all those 60's hippies who are now feeling guilty about their financial success. They realize they failed to acheive all of the social change that they wanted in the 60's and now are in a position to do more about it. Scary.

It is also what I said before. He is buying votes from people who stupidly entered into ARM's without the financail wherewithall to deal with it.

I also don't have one whit of simpathy for the financial institutions who were making these loans. They were high risk loans and they should have known better. But they did get greedy (partially derived by their compensation structure for their employees).

The real problem was/is the horribly inflated property values. Those values were driven by (in my opinion) the lenders and the States turning a blind eye because of ever increasing property tax revenues. It was also driven by speculators. The idea that your house will always be worth more in 5 years than it is today is just as foolish as thinking that your stock purchase will always be worth more in 5 years. This is all greatly simplified btw and I am sure I don't understand most of the dynamics here.

[Funkmasta]

Are you telling me that we should have sweatshops and let people work for however low the company is willing to pay? There needs to be intervention because American citizens would be exploited. This was rampant all during the Industrial age. But hey, at least the fat cats were living good.

Who in the hell would work in a sweatshop? There are plenty of jobs available. If you don't like where you work you are free to find another job.

There does NOT need to be any intervention of any kind, except the kind that blocks filth being passed as truth.

[uofom3]

I did not want to bring this up cause I hate complaining like this, but does this kind of stuff piss people off as much as it does me?

Taken from the speech

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."


Could someone please take responsibility for their own actions!?!!? Does her having blind twins change anything about how she was dumb and didn't think past next month's payment? I'm not trying to single people out cause I do feel for her, but....really? That is where my tax dollars are going.

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

[uofom3]

Who in the hell would work in a sweatshop? There are plenty of jobs available. If you don't like where you work you are free to find another job.

There does NOT need to be any intervention of any kind, except the kind that blocks filth being passed as truth.

Free market economies work great - you're right. The job market is a free market, and will set its own appropriate fees and wages for various jobs.

[Funkmasta]

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

It is a VERY shitty situation, but the answer may be a government loan? The answer is not to bail out.

Mortgage brokers are the new "used car salesmen". It has been known for a LONG time that you need to carefully review any loan document, as many of them are shady.

[Funkmasta]

though... maybe there will be some cheap properties that pop up over the next year or two. ;)

[uofom3]

though... maybe there will be some cheap properties that pop up over the next year or two. ;)

those of us with real assets will be having a field day.

[Hallen]

This is a seriously tough issue.

I have a belief on this that is kind of out of left field (no pun intended) for this. I don't feel that people should be "bailed out" of situations like this, but I have a little bit of a beef with people who are in a lending position.

The way I see it going down is something like this... Most loan officers are not finance majors/peoply education. They got the mortage license (which is not hard to obtain) and went into business for themselves; many of them not completely educated or really much different than the people that they are lending to.

These people then got into loanding money to people by basically not explaining to them everything that went along with an adjustable rate situation. These people bit on the loans, and now are paying the price.

I guess my feeling is if you are in a position to be smarter and more fortunate than someone else, exploiting their ignorance is slightly immoral. People who are less educated need to be guided, not fleeced. I wouldn't lend money to somene who was not fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their situation. if they were made abreast of the possibilties and still persued it - go for it.

I guess part of having knowledge/power/etc. is being aware of the fact that you are in a position of influence and control. You can make improvements (help guide people) or you can do other things.

The caveat to this - it is NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROBLEM. this is a private matter, and speaks to the moral breakdown of some members of our society - but again, the government has no business getting in the middle of financial agreements made by private citizens who were acting legally. Hard lesson to learn for some people, but they likely won't do it again.

It is tough and I do feel bad for anybody who got scammed into something they couldn't deal with.
Part of the problem is the compensation systems used for real estate transactions. The realtor gets paid a percentage of the home sale amount. It is in their best interest to keep sales prices high.
The loan officer often gets paid on the total amount of the loans they issue. It is in their interest to keep sales prices high. It is also in their best interest to issue ARM loans to people who couldn't afford the payments if the rates go up at all. It is all about making the loan, not about the risk or about the customer.
The lending institution makes money on the total amount of the loan. It is in their best interest to keep the sales price high. They don't care about the risk because they will almost immediately sell the paper to a larger institution and they are absolved of the risk.
The State regulators and assessors have an interest in keeping the sales prices high because it drives up property prices and therefore property taxes (in states that have property tax).
It is a situation where nobody was in control because of how all these people and institutions get compensated.
The institutions and real estate funds that get left holding the bag have nobody to blame but themselves because they should have known the paper they were buying was risky.
This is a tough thing. Should the government step in and crack down on this stuff? How? What laws are in place to keep something like this from happening? Should there be laws?
Probably not. If the brokerage houses had set acceptable risk levels and had solid oversight, it would have been self policing. If the compensation packages were done differently where it is in a loan officer's best interests to not make overly risky loans, then it could have changed things.
Free markets and no governmental intervention will fail at times too. But it is the exception that does not make the rule.

It is pretty dumb. The only the holder of the mortgage can do is try and go back and refinance the loans to some of these people and try and keep them in their homes because that is the only way they can keep from taking a huge hit.

But I also bet that a lot of people who were getting these loans were speculators who only wanted to keep the property for a short while and the roll it over. All that stuff they teach in those "how to make money fast" seminars. I really don't have any sympathy for them.

[uofom3]

You're absolutely right, Hallen. Thanks for going into more depth about the subject - I didn't really want to go that far for time sake ;)

What it comes down to with all of this for me personally is - if someone is going to go vote for a given candidate, do it with all of the facts on the table.

If you really love Obama, then do what you have to do. Just do it by being cognitively dissonant as opposed to ignorant - If logic won out, you wouldn't need hope because you would have already arrived at solutions.

[1991 318is]

It's along way from those people fainting at political rallies isn't it?

[DarkWing6]

OK guys, something I was thinking about last night.

Back to that snipit from his speech.

"We're here because of the mother in San Antonio that I met just today, just this afternoon. She's got 2-year-old twins who are legally blind. She somehow entered into a predatory loan and saw her mortgage payments double in two weeks and has paid thousands in fees to try to stave off foreclosure.

She told me she was on the verge of packing and didn't know where her family would go next. She needed us to crack down on predatory lenders and give relief to struggling homeowners who were tricked out of their dream. She needs change today."

Now explain to me how he is not doing the same thing to the American people that the "predatory lenders" did to this woman. He is taking advantage of short-sighted Americans that think, "Oh, wow, no taxes for me and I can stick it to the man. Count me in!" Then a year or two down the line when there are no jobs and our economy is in a real recession (I think we are in a minor one right now, but if this happens, you ain't seen nothing yet).

Years from now we will have speeches like, "Years ago the American people somehow got into a tax system that....." :D <--even though it is not funny and is true and sad.

[sticksdaman]

best thread ive read in a long time

Although my views havent changed, I do appreciate the fact that this thread was conducted with such a minimal amount of name calling and a large amount of facts to support opinions.