Who has more experience? Palin or Obama?

[rwh11385]

I don't get my economic opinions from the news. [Get them from black and white TV]

I get them from my bank account. Every time I pay $80 to fill up my car, or $4 for a gallon of milk, or $350 for the month's power bill, or watch my 401K shrink another 10%, it's an indictator that things aren't going well.

I can see it right in front of my face, so stop acting like I don't know wtf I'm talking about.

The nominal prices may make your old fart excuse for a brain worried, but you can afford more milk today than in 1985.

1985:
min wage - $3.35
Cost of a gallon of Milk: $2.26

2008:
min wage - $6.55
Cost of a gallon of Milk: depends on location, but $3.50

Gallons of milk you can afford with one hour of min wage work, gross.
1985: 1.48 gallons
2008: 1.87 gallons
(even at $4/gal, you can buy more - 1.6385)

Energy prices have gone up, as well as labor cost domestically (in part thanks to price floors set by the government which also bumps up unemployment) and other prices are also rising because of global demand for oil and steel as examples, much of it was caused by our outsourcing in China and India.

But saying the economy is bad because milk costs you $4/gallon in 2008 just underlines how clueless you are on economics and just an old kook (who should stay out of political or economic arguments).

[nando]

gas costs me 5 times as much now as when I started driving in 1994 :o

but I make like 10 times as much money.. hmm. :p

even in the last few years, I'm still better off - the fed takes more out in taxes every check now than I made in an entire week during college.

[DarkWing6]

I don't get my economic opinions from the news.

I get them from my bank account. Every time I pay $80 to fill up my car, or $4 for a gallon of milk, or $350 for the month's power bill, or watch my 401K shrink another 10%, it's an indictator that things aren't going well.

I can see it right in front of my face, so stop acting like I don't know wtf I'm talking about.

The problam is you attribute this all to Bush and his "mistakes". I agree that he has made some, but I don't give him all the credit for $4 gas prices (which are currently dropping), or the poor activity of my 401K (yes, I'm 22 and I have one), etc.

You are looking at the results and then assuming the cause. That is your problem. Reread what Heeter has said. Has he once said that there are not $4 gas prices or poor performing 401Ks? No, he is telling you what is actually causing it.

[Lair]

I don't know what's causing it.

Seriously.

[Pinepig]

It's the same thing every time, as soon as Lair get's his ass handed to him he goes low brow.

[rwh11385]

It's the same thing every time, as soon as Lair get's his ass handed to him he goes low brow.

He sees numbers he doesn't understand, whines, reads the news, and is even told how to understand figures about the economy in context...

but then resorts to acting like a 5 year old with BUT THE NEWS TOLD ME IT WAS BAD AND ITS ALL BOOOOOOOSHS FAULT!

Old farts or young uneducated fools who don't know economics like liberal politicians who are telling them things are bad and HOPE will make things better.

Those who know econ understand it's not as bad as doom and gloom media wants you think to, and are pretty fine as is. Of course, we're brighter, so it makes sense.

When media outlets and even commercials were hinting at recession, even though there was NO contradiction in GDP, I laughed. Although really, it's sad people are that gullible or stupid. (Because they get a vote too)

[jddbmw6913]

rwh11385 what's your stand on the fairtax proposal?

[DarkWing6]

Lair, I got this chain email today that seems to speak your language, so I figured I would cut and paste it here. Please forgive the all caps and formatting. It is just a cut and paste. I really don't care what it has to say, but it is stupid propaganda written the way Lair reads and opposing what he says.



George Bush has been in office for 7 1/2 years. The first six the economy was fine.

A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.

4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +

5) American's were buying new cars, taking cruises, vacations overseas, living large!...



But American's wanted 'CHANNGE'! So, in 2006 they voted in a Democratic Congress & yep--we got 'CHANGE' all right!.....
1) Consumer confidence has plummeted ;
2) Gasoline is now over $4 a gallon & climbing!;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);

4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12 TRILLION DOLLARS & prices still dropping;

5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
6) as I write, THE DOW is probing another low~~11,300--$2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR STOCKS, BONDS & MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIOS!




YEP , IN 2006 AMERICA VOTED FOR CHANGE!...AND WE SURE GOT IT!!!....NOW 'BO', the DEM'S CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT--AND THE POLLS SAY HE'S GONNA BE 'THE MAN'--CLAIMS HE'S GONNA REALLY GIVE US CHANGE!!....JUST HOW MUCH MORE 'CHANGE' DO YA THINK YOU CAN STAND???.....

[rwh11385]

rwh11385 what's your stand on the fairtax proposal?

Quick reaction: Like the removal of discouragement to work and the new encouragement to save, but troubled by evasion potential, import encouragement, and also lack of deductions. There WAS a thread in OT about charity vs. taxes and redistribution and one of the strengths of income tax is being able to give make more donation than you actually miss. This could be fixed by donations to charity tax-free obviously... but can still get complicated. If more people invest or buy from abroad, that won't be great for the dollar.

I've had limited experience living in a VAT country, and it was interesting. I dunno if it would work here, but something rates should definitely NOT increase by someone like Obama.

I'm typically for leaving things as they are being a fiscal conservative, and only perhaps playing along the Laffer Curve or improving the competitiveness of US corporations with a low tax rate... not radically changing the way things have worked in the past. I focused much more on international economics and FairTax gets very little play in the media, so I'll look into it more and post if I have any updated views on it.

[Lair]

Lair, I got this chain email today that seems to speak your language, so I figured I would cut and paste it here. Please forgive the all caps and formatting. It is just a cut and paste. I really don't care what it has to say, but it is stupid propaganda written the way Lair reads and opposing what he says.



George Bush has been in office for 7 1/2 years. The first six the economy was fine.

A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.

4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +

5) American's were buying new cars, taking cruises, vacations overseas, living large!...



But American's wanted 'CHANNGE'! So, in 2006 they voted in a Democratic Congress & yep--we got 'CHANGE' all right!.....
1) Consumer confidence has plummeted ;
2) Gasoline is now over $4 a gallon & climbing!;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);

4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12 TRILLION DOLLARS & prices still dropping;

5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
6) as I write, THE DOW is probing another low~~11,300--$2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR STOCKS, BONDS & MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT PORTFOLIOS!




YEP , IN 2006 AMERICA VOTED FOR CHANGE!...AND WE SURE GOT IT!!!....NOW 'BO', the DEM'S CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT--AND THE POLLS SAY HE'S GONNA BE 'THE MAN'--CLAIMS HE'S GONNA REALLY GIVE US CHANGE!!....JUST HOW MUCH MORE 'CHANGE' DO YA THINK YOU CAN STAND???.....

I don't get emails like that.

Is that a perk of being a John McCain supporter? Free angry BS emails?

BTW, if Bush's foreign and domestic policies ARE NOT the cause of our current economic problems, then he's the unluckiest sonofabitch on the planet. For all these economic record lows to converge at once is an astounding coincidence.

It's kinda like that whole "OOPS! NO WMD!" thing in Iraq. That's not his fault either.

[DarkWing6]

Just some chain email I got from my Aunt. And I said that I didn't necessarily agree with the email 100%, but that is the same BS you post when it is not some stupid picture.

Explain to me how this...

I don't know what's causing it.

Seriously.

Is a valid response to this...

The problam is you attribute this all to Bush and his "mistakes". I agree that he has made some, but I don't give him all the credit for $4 gas prices (which are currently dropping), or the poor activity of my 401K (yes, I'm 22 and I have one), etc.

You are looking at the results and then assuming the cause. That is your problem. Reread what Heeter has said. Has he once said that there are not $4 gas prices or poor performing 401Ks? No, he is telling you what is actually causing it.

Then we can continue. Until then...




And it you really don't know what is causing it you should read some of Heater's posts. He is explaining out to you what is causing it. He tells you what the cause and effect is and explains out why that is true. He isn't just giving you statements. he is backing them up. Please read.

[Pinepig]

J Please read.

[Lair]

All I'm saying is that Bush and his policies (or lack of them) are directly responsible for what's happening with our economy.

You can blame whatever factors fit into your agenda, but most of the country agrees with me. There are reams of evidence and plenty of economists who agree with me also.

I'm not saying that anyone on the planet is more qualified than heater, but there MIGHT be someone out there who knows more about the subject than he does. ;)

Archive for Thursday, June 26, 2008
TIMES/BLOOMBERG POLL

Times poll: 75% blame Bush’s policies for deterioriating economy
The figure includes large numbers of dissatisfied Republicans and represents a sharp increase in pessimism over the last year. Higher fuel prices have sharpened the criticism.

By Maura Reynolds
June 26, 2008

Three out of four Americans, including large numbers of Republicans, blame President Bush’s economic policies for making the country worse off during the last eight years, according to a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll released today, reflecting a sharp increase in public pessimism during the last year.

Nine percent of respondents said the country’s economic condition has become better off since Bush became president, compared with 75% who said conditions had worsened. Among Republicans, 42% said the country is worse off, while 26% said it is about the same, and only 22% thought economic conditions had improved.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/26/business/fi-poll26

[red]

I've only taken one Economics course last year and only a sophmore, so hopefully this makes some sense.

Thinking about things logically I'm more inclined to agree with you Heeter, because if it were as bad as the news said it is, I probably wouldn't have the leisure of posting on this board and neither would many of us. But I don't think its as good as you says it is. What about the Fed lowering interest rates several times late last year and early this year? And they weren't holding back, they were slashing them by 75 points. Surely that's an indicator things aren't great. I think they were trying to encourage banks to borrow, so that banks would loan more money to people. But that didn't work and indirectly weakened the dollar. IIRC around this time is when the Euro began to gain.

And wasn't Bush's economic stimulus plan his solution to the decline in GDP. Obviously it didn't work because most people used the money to pay off debt.

We aren't on the verge of becoming a third world country, but I don't think we got it as good as you and many others think we do.

[Pinepig]

All I'm saying is that Bush and his policies (or lack of them) are directly responsible for what's happening with our economy.

You can blame whatever factors fit into your agenda, but most of the country agrees with me. There are reams of evidence and plenty of economists who agree with me also.

I'm not saying that anyone on the planet is more qualified than heater, but there MIGHT be someone out there who knows more about the subject than he does. ;)



http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun...ness/fi-poll26

So after all the facts and figures you are going to back your argument up with a fucking poll from the LA times.

BEST LAIR LOGIC EVAR.