Church and State - Time to bring back together?

[eric (^__^)]

Yeah, there is a reference in the bible that Christians use that is a story of Jesus going and tossing the "Moneychangers" out of the temple. A concept that can ring true today. Certain things simply do not belong together, like seafood and cheese, liquor after beer, etc.

Of course I can't tell you the exact passages, but given time I could cite many instances where the bible goes on about the government. The story about Jesus upturning tables in the temple is a good one, but it's more about greed than the government (lol synonymous)

[Dave]

See my sig . . .

[eric (^__^)]

I agree Eric, but there is a fuzzy line between removing faith from the equation and still instilling your morals and beliefs into how you are represented. The important thing is that no one should be forced to believe or forced into any religion, but some of the morals that are believed by people within certain religions will be represented in the government because those are the beliefs of the majority (democracy basically means majority rules).

The people that complain about these religious ideals being represented in government need to get past that fact these ideals come from a specific religion and realize that they are ideals upheld by the bulk majority. They have chosen to live in a democracy made up of quite a few people that do have similar religious beliefs, so some of those ideas from that religion are going to be represented by the whole.

Why would any Christian believe that instilling morals in the populace was the duty of the government?

[Farbin Kaiber]

Of course I can't tell you the exact passages, but given time I could cite many instances where the bible goes on about the government. The story about Jesus upturning tables in the temple is a good one, but it's more about greed than the government (lol synonymous)

Yeah, there are also passages in the NT that state being IN this world, one must live by the rules of man (social government) until you get out of here(to eternity).

[eric (^__^)]

exactly

so what's the deal guys

[DarkWing6]

Why would any Christian believe that instilling morals in the populace was the duty of the government?

I think you are misunderstanding exactly what I am saying.

Certain aspects of the government and the things they are supposed to represent and protect begin to jog the line of religion. Things like abortion would fall into this. Many Pro-Life people are also Christians, so people say get your religion out of my government when someone wants to protect the life of an unborn child. I don't want to get into an abortion argument here, so just read this to understand where I am coming from not prove right or wrong on abortion. It is the government's duty to protect the lives of the American people, so the government (in some people's interpretation) should be protecting the life of that child. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying the 10 Commandements should be law becasue the majority of America claims to be Chrisitan.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Why would any Christian believe that instilling morals in the populace was the duty of the government?

Unfortunately, the majority of Christian's wander around being led by what pastors tell them the rules are. James Dobson (Focus on the Family) says something, and it rings true for a huge majority of the people out there listening. They'll do what those pastors say. And if those pastors tell them that it would be in their, and the churches best interest to vote to repeal this law against backing a specific politician.

Then all these people go out to their polling place and check the box that does what their Pastor told them was a good thing. Now those pastors have a huge tool that the Politicians want. They want the ability to tell all those people that voted to allow their pastors to endorse a politician.

Now that politician goes out, waves a bible during one speech, and everyone votes him into the office. And, those pastors are taking the churches money and throwing it at the politicians, and then they sit down and plan the next assault on braking down the wall between Church and State.

[DarkWing6]

Farbin, you are opening a whole new thread for the problems with a lot of churches these days... ;)

[Farbin Kaiber]

Farbin, you are opening a whole new thread for the problems with a lot of churches these days...

What can I say, tangents are my specialty.

In honesty, when I made the OP, the statement I just made was the root of my issue with it. I just had not iterated it to everyone.

[eric (^__^)]

I think you are misunderstanding exactly what I am saying.

Certain aspects of the government and the things they are supposed to represent and protect begin to jog the line of religion. Things like abortion would fall into this. Many Pro-Life people are also Christians, so people say get your religion out of my government when someone wants to protect the life of an unborn child. I don't want to get into an abortion argument here, so just read this to understand where I am coming from not prove right or wrong on abortion. It is the government's duty to protect the lives of the American people, so the government (in some people's interpretation) should be protecting the life of that child. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying the 10 Commandements should be law becasue the majority of America claims to be Chrisitan.

Abortion is a horrible vehicle for this discussion, and I am not even going there. The scenario you outlined is totally rational, and could be used to describe several other codes the government uses to do its job.

My question is, where is there room for religion to enter into it? I believe religion is here to stay, good or bad, and I think people should use the same hand to vote as they do to thump the bible; it's their call. But someday I hope that our elected politicians stop using the Bible to prop up their ill-concieved administrations. I'm 100% positive that Jesus would be with me on this one.

I wouldn't vote for a man brandishing the Bible as a sales tool, and I'd hope any self-respecting Christian would recognize when their sensibilities are getting tickled from behind.

[Farbin Kaiber]

...But someday I hope that our elected politicians stop using the Bible to prop up their ill-concieved administrations. I'm 100% positive that Jesus would be with me on this one.

I wouldn't vote for a man brandishing the Bible as a sales tool, and I'd hope any self-respecting Christian would recognize when their sensibilities are getting tickled from behind.

See, you are on the same wavelength with me on this subject, but, what I'm trying to let you know, (even if you are a "self-respecting Christian") that a large percentage of the rest of them out there (see, Red States) will vote for the guy waving the bible, touting scripture at the College football bleachers in middle America.

It's the way it is, now when their Pastor, or the Pope for that matter take the ability to back a candidate, thats when something crazy happens.

Imagine the Pope mobilizing 64.1 million voters as of the 2008 calculations. That is a make or break situation.

[DarkWing6]

Pretty much every presidential canidate has tried using the Bible and their nationally boradcasted trip to church as a tool to gain votes. While it is not my place to judge where anyone is at in their relationship with God, I call BS on that type of stuff. I look at their voting records and and stance on the issues. Saying they are or are not a Christian does not sway me either way. Obviously ones that are truely Christians will tend to have similar view points to Christians though.


If I am reading what you are saying, I think you are and I are on the same page, or at least somewhat close (not on religion, but the place of religion/religious beliefs within the government).

[Farbin Kaiber]

Yeah, I mean nothing in regards to religion in what I've said, just the two holding one another too close. And yeah, like you said, I don't buy the crap when they wave a bible and spout, I vote on the persons records and things they do/have done.

I know there are many easier led folks in the country, and my issue is with them being not only swayed by that government dude waving a book, but now by the guy that brings them, to their understanding the complete grasp of their everlasting spiritual life.

We as a nation don't want people voting by what their pastor tells them is right, but by what is right for our nation.

[eric (^__^)]

good game guys!

Now if we could just get McCain/Obama to read this page.

[DarkWing6]

Unfortunately we cannot control all the sheep. We can try to guide them to think for themselves, but even without stepping out and saying "I'm voting Obama and you should too" or vise versa most of the sheep know which way their "leader" is voting and will vote that too.