Econmics

[Aptyp]

well, it's all about tomorrow

Either way, someone should compound a list of all Obama promises. If he wins, hold him accountable for it. Same for McCain, although he built less castles in the sky.

Americans will get what they deserve either way.

[nando]

Best point made in the whole thread.

Argue semantics all you want, but this is the truth.

Bush is an idiot, we all know; but why do we have to vote for another idiot on the opposite side of spectrum in order to see change?

because that is how populism works. People vote for the guy they "could have a beer with", the guy who promises everyone free lunch and holidays, not for the guy who will make sound choices about our future. That's too boorish.

[speedhop]

I think you are mistaking conservatives for BOOSH supporters though - I doubt moneyshift is much of a bush fan. With approval ratings in the teens, pretty much everybody hates the guy. Everything about his 8 years of office has been pretty awful, from Sept 11, Iraq, and the housing/financial bust, although Iraq is pretty much the only thing that can be blamed entirely on his administration. He's definitely not going to go down as one of the great presidents. Unfortunately it's just opening the door for the other nut jobs that want to take even more things away and give us empty promises in return.

Best point made in the whole thread.

Argue semantics all you want, but this is the truth.

Bush is an idiot, we all know; but why do we have to vote for another idiot on the opposite side of spectrum in order to see change?

[nando]

I think you are mistaking conservatives for BOOSH supporters though - I doubt moneyshift is much of a bush fan. With approval ratings in the teens, pretty much everybody hates the guy. Everything about his 8 years of office has been pretty awful, from Sept 11, Iraq, and the housing/financial bust, although Iraq is pretty much the only thing that can be blamed entirely on his administration. He's definitely not going to go down as one of the great presidents. Unfortunately it's just opening the door for the other nut jobs that want to take even more things away and give us empty promises in return.

No, you wont - you'll probably see half to three quarters of what you put into it, because SS will most likely be bankrupt by the time you hit retirement. Actually, it will be bankrupt within 10 years, but you can put your head in the sand and pretend it won't be.

Assuming they somehow avoid that, they will likely have to raise the retirement age to 75, so you're going to bust your ass off until you're in your mid 70s and then collect ~$300 a month because the rest of the money you put into SS will be paying for other government social programs. Even if it hadn't all been spent, it will not have grown, in fact it will have shrunk because of 3% inflation compounded over 40 years. And IF it were 1:1 by the time you retire (assume it grows at exactly the same rate as inflation, which is the idiotic plan the liberals want), you won't be able to live off it because the cost of living will be much greater by then.



Uhh, this is not new to any government, liberal or conservative. They've been spending all the money that we put into SS ever since it was created. You can blame it all on BOOOSH, but he's just following the path of every president before him, including all your favorites (carter?).

You will need at least $2 million dollars saved by the time you retire to keep your current lifestyle, and that includes the small supplement you'll get from social security. if you think you're going to get $2 million from investing into the government, you've got a pretty big surprise coming. And $2 million dollars won't mean you are rich either, it will mean you are merely surviving.

Good points Nando but you are arguing semantics. I never said I was going to get all my money back. I got my point across to Moneyshit.

[nando]

Where are you getting this information from? Social Security was designed to be permanent. I pay into it now so that when I turn 65 I can begin getting it back. By your logic, at some point when it ended, a lot of people younger than 65 would have been royally fucked.

No, you wont - you'll probably see half to three quarters of what you put into it, because SS will most likely be bankrupt by the time you hit retirement. Actually, it will be bankrupt within 10 years, but you can put your head in the sand and pretend it won't be.

Assuming they somehow avoid that, they will likely have to raise the retirement age to 75, so you're going to bust your ass off until you're in your mid 70s and then collect ~$300 a month because the rest of the money you put into SS will be paying for other government social programs. Even if it hadn't all been spent, it will not have grown, in fact it will have shrunk because of 3% inflation compounded over 40 years. And IF it were 1:1 by the time you retire (assume it grows at exactly the same rate as inflation, which is the idiotic plan the liberals want), you won't be able to live off it because the cost of living will be much greater by then.

You want to know what the problem with Social Security is? It is the fact that our President decided it would be a good idea to use that money towards a fucking war. He used mine and your retirement money to pay for a war which he blatantly lied about. You call yourselves conservative yet it is the Republicans that spend all the money and drive the deficit sky high and drastically increase debt.

Uhh, this is not new to any government, liberal or conservative. They've been spending all the money that we put into SS ever since it was created. You can blame it all on BOOOSH, but he's just following the path of every president before him, including all your favorites (carter?).

You will need at least $2 million dollars saved by the time you retire to keep your current lifestyle, and that includes the small supplement you'll get from social security. if you think you're going to get $2 million from investing into the government, you've got a pretty big surprise coming. And $2 million dollars won't mean you are rich either, it will mean you are merely surviving.

[Ral]

H0lmes, go read Adam Smith. You know, the philosopher that founded the modern economic system...

The only thing that allows people to be benevolent is if the system doesn't force them to be. And the best way to increase overall spending is if people work to earn as much as they can. Being forced to work, or being forced to give, only ends up with a sub-standard worker and a poor economy.

[Aptyp]

alright h0lmes, throw some my way. You've convinced me. I am a struggling college student, as are many on the forum. Trickle down some of your fortune on us. Unless you work for your paycheck, and you have plans for the money you earn.

If I'll make $250,000 in a year, I could buy a boat thereby giving jobs. Why should I give that hard earned money to government? Is it not enough that a person will buy a more expensive home, and more expensive car, will spend more on services and food. Will be more generous (US citizen give more donations than the entire world combined). Will invest it.

Nah, I'd rather give that money way, but 100k home instead of 250k home. Drive a Kia instead of BMW. I don't think so. Services can always be bartered, and lawyers, doctors and businessman will take care of each other. Farmers will take care of them selves, and suddenly US income level will dramatically drop. eBay and Craigslist will be salvations.

And you're right judging person social level by money is stupid. I would much rather judge people by the size of their rims (rent&roll in front of a trailer), gold chains, grillz and so forth. Why judge people by the amount of time and money they spent educating themselves when we can judge them by the amount of money they spent on stupid shit.

Success is measured by money, because that's the capitalist system. What else would you judge success by?

I didn't intend to degrade any "lower class" workers. I was commenting on holmes' resentment of successful people, and how the other nine people at the bar deserve a handout from the evil businessman. Most successful people get that way because of hard work and because they have a skill that can not be learned in a day.
The product of the shitshovel lifestyle may be stressful, but obtaining that position in life usually doesn't require much stress. Drop out of high school, don't try to improve yourself or your skills in anyway, only apply to jobs that don't require a drug test, and generally don't put any effort or thought into the direction that your life is heading, seems pretty easy to me.

Oh shush. I don't resent successful people, I resent the fact that the measurement of success in our society is money. Not only that but for someone to be successful, as far as money is concerned, it means that there are 10 people that aren't successful. This is a requirement. It would be nice for the rich guy to throw some down the ladder as a sort of bonus but they don't. Instead, they bitch and moan about having to pay a few extra bucks out of their tremendous fortune.

[trashcop 80s 80s]

Funny you mention professions that are known to be some of the biggest scumbags (lawyers and businessmen). I guess if I had to lie and cheat my way through every day, in the name of the almighty dollar, I would be stressed too. I'm not generalizing, just pointing out a side you're ignoring.

Would you shovel shit, since it's the glamorous, nonstressful lifestyle you claim it to be?


Seems like the only time we empathize with the "lower class" is when they're fighting our wars.

I didn't intend to degrade any "lower class" workers. I was commenting on holmes' resentment of successful people, and how the other nine people at the bar deserve a handout from the evil businessman. Most successful people get that way because of hard work and because they have a skill that can not be learned in a day.
The product of the shitshovel lifestyle may be stressful, but obtaining that position in life usually doesn't require much stress. Drop out of high school, don't try to improve yourself or your skills in anyway, only apply to jobs that don't require a drug test, and generally don't put any effort or thought into the direction that your life is heading, seems pretty easy to me.

[Ral]

Funny you mention professions that are known to be some of the biggest scumbags (lawyers and businessmen). I guess if I had to lie and cheat my way through every day, in the name of the almighty dollar, I would be stressed too. I'm not generalizing, just pointing out a side you're ignoring.

Would you shovel shit, since it's the glamorous, nonstressful lifestyle you claim it to be?


Seems like the only time we empathize with the "lower class" is when they're fighting our wars.

There's scumbags at every level- ever heard of someone getting gouged at the car repair shop?

And most of the "lower class" that fights your wars gets paid less than minimum wage, and lives below the poverty line. Barack Obama wants not only to cut this dramatically (Barney Frank went so far as to call for a 25% cut in the military) but wants to create a "civilian security force" with equal funding based on the idea that the military is not sufficient to take care of national security issues. This insinuates that the military is not capable of doing its job, and says civilians are better suited to it. Go tell your junior sailor, Marine, airman, and soldier that what they do is not sufficient to maintain national security, and Barack wants to create a civilian "corps" to take their place and money, then say you empathize with them.

This should at least raise some eyebrows, and beg more thorough questioning but since Obamessiah said it, it will be accepted as gold by many.

[brandondan1]

It is so much more difficult to be a businessman/physician/lawyer than it is to be any manual labor shit shoveler. It takes extreme amounts of stress and risks in hopes that a profit will be made and the company will succeed. It takes years of education, taking risks, making decisions that are woth millions of dollars everyday. A shit shoveler goes to work and shovels shit. They shovel shit all day and think to themselves "damn I hate shoveling shit". Then they go home and get drunk and shovel shit the next day. It is fucking easy.

Try going to school for 8 years while not making any money in hopes that one day you will have a nice job where you can have the lives of people in your hands and one single wrong decision can mean that you lose your license and everything you have done for the last decade is worth nothing.

Funny you mention professions that are known to be some of the biggest scumbags (lawyers and businessmen). I guess if I had to lie and cheat my way through every day, in the name of the almighty dollar, I would be stressed too. I'm not generalizing, just pointing out a side you're ignoring.

Would you shovel shit, since it's the glamorous, nonstressful lifestyle you claim it to be?


Seems like the only time we empathize with the "lower class" is when they're fighting our wars.

[trashcop 80s 80s]

The scenario is very warped. The truth is that the richest guy was most likely their boss whom was getting bj's in his office and browsing r3v all day, while the other 9 were shoveling shit. He should have paid the whole fucking bill.

It is so much more difficult to be a businessman/physician/lawyer than it is to be any manual labor shit shoveler. It takes extreme amounts of stress and risks in hopes that a profit will be made and the company will succeed. It takes years of education, taking risks, making decisions that are woth millions of dollars everyday. A shit shoveler goes to work and shovels shit. They shovel shit all day and think to themselves "damn I hate shoveling shit". Then they go home and get drunk and shovel shit the next day. It is fucking easy.

Try going to school for 8 years while not making any money in hopes that one day you will have a nice job where you can have the lives of people in your hands and one single wrong decision can mean that you lose your license and everything you have done for the last decade is worth nothing.

[kylebes1]

The scenario is very warped. The truth is that the richest guy was most likely their boss whom was getting bj's in his office and browsing r3v all day, while the other 9 were shoveling shit. He should have paid the whole fucking bill.

I almost actually laughed out loud. I truly have no problem with the scenario. You cannot choose at what level you are born, but at least you can tell yourself you are climbing...

To the original poster:

The scenario is somewhat warped. If the first four had been shining the shoes of the highest 2 then we could more easily understand how they were allowed to drink without paying.

Those at the top provide for those at the bottom. There is no doubt about that, and it has worked for thousands of years.

The guys in the middle can handle life on their own, but are still helped some what by the guys above them.

That is the idea of economics, which can easily exist on its own. The government and socialism are something separate.... should I go into that?

The scenario is very warped. The truth is that the richest guy was most likely their boss whom was getting bj's in his office and browsing r3v all day, while the other 9 were shoveling shit. He should have paid the whole fucking bill.