change.gov

[Julien]

It's funny how people in other countries think we're the ignorant ones.

I've lived the past 20 years of my life in the united states....

but anyways guns guns guns guns guns guns, give them to children to elders fuck, even to dogs..

"Right to bear arms and the right to arm bears"
ITS MY RIGHT YA UNDERSTANDDD, IT'S AMERICA. sigh.

Julien

[Aptyp]

problem is not with owning guns, problem is with government having a say in it.


What's next? Are they going to tell me what to eat? what to drink? where to work?

Once you take away from a person means of defending himself, you can do whatever you want to him. And it's no only in weapons, Patriot Act took certain right away. So you take a little bit of rights, a little bit of guns, and now what? I don't have guns, but if I choose to buy some, I'd like that to be my decision.

That applies to many things. Drugs? I don't do them, but if at any point I choose to experiment, I wouldn't want to feel like a criminal. If drugs effect my performance or endanger others, then I should be disciplined/punished.

Past 3 elections had such a tiny popular vote margin, and that should let people know that we live in a half-and-half country. What's right to a college kid may not be right to a farmer of 30 years. What's right to a stay-at-home mom, may not be right for a truck driver. That's why freedoms are bestowed on people in hope they will be responsible with their liberties. If we are going to tighten those liberties, little by little, eventually some people will find their backs against a brick wall.

I have never been a fan of civil wars and revolutions, and I really hope to avoid any in my lifetime. That doesn't mean that I won't pick up a gun for what I believe in.

[lowlightbw]

where do you make the cutoff? im all for the right to bear arms, but why shouldnt i have a surface to air missile station? a fully functional tank? an old f-14 tomcat? to me they serve the same purpose as a fully automatic assault rifle. im not saying we shouldnt be allowed to own whatever gun we want, but you have to be sensible about where to make the cutoff.

[RCWells]

where do you make the cutoff? im all for the right to bear arms, but why shouldnt i have a surface to air missile station? a fully functional tank? an old f-14 tomcat? to me they serve the same purpose as a fully automatic assault rifle. im not saying we shouldnt be allowed to own whatever gun we want, but you have to be sensible about where to make the cutoff.

A tank?...Hmmmmm......now THAT could come in handy! Prices on automatic weapons are prohibitively expensive for all but those with truly disposable income, so your argument is moot. Low end autos are generally in the $3K range and HKMP5s, M16s and the like are easily in the $10-20K range with some even higher, so there are very very few that can AFFORD to own these guns. SAMs, tanks, and fighter jets?? Are you serious? Yeah, I think I'll pick up an old M1 Abrahams next check. How bout we draw the line at reality?

[Aptyp]

No, he's making a solid point. Unfortunately there are crazy mofos and collectors who'd like to put their hands on anything.

The big thing is, some people will buy it legally, or they'll find that gray market. What's worse, is they'll also find black market. If you think war on drugs has been a fuck-up, imagine what the war on guns will be like. Wouldn't you rather know that your neighbor buys lots of guns, than one day be surprised by it?

[lowlightbw]

A tank?...Hmmmmm......now THAT could come in handy! Prices on automatic weapons are prohibitively expensive for all but those with truly disposable income, so your argument is moot. Low end autos are generally in the $3K range and HKMP5s, M16s and the like are easily in the $10-20K range with some even higher, so there are very very few that can AFFORD to own these guns. SAMs, tanks, and fighter jets?? Are you serious? Yeah, I think I'll pick up an old M1 Abrahams next check. How bout we draw the line at reality?

you obviously missed the point. its not about being able to afford whatever, its the question of the right to own them. how is owning a fully automatic assault rifle any form of REALity? im saying assault rifles and tanks are used for the same thing. to kill lots of people. again, im not saying people shouldnt own them, but lets draw the line at REALity.:D

[RCWells]

Again, the point is, I DO have the right currently, and would like to KEEP it!

[rwh11385]

Yes, freedom of speech is indeed applied in most industrial countries of the world with only a few exceptions. Who cares about carrying a gun? I feel much safer knowing that people are not carrying guns around me. Rights to a fair trial is also the norm mostly in every other country. Come on. When was the last time you have travelled abroad?

And the good ol' time when America once cared about liberties: segregation, slavery, witch hunts, McCarthysm, Sacco and Vanzetti, high number of assassinated presidents, death penalty, Guantanamo, Chile, Argentina, Panama etc...

Applied or did you mean implied? I don't like rights being "implied".

Look at the statistics. You are less likely to be mugged in the US than the UK. Much of the reason is criminals have to fear who has a gun here. It's like having lo-jack in some cars helping to deter car thefts.

Scotland has guilty, not guilty, and not proven. You have a right to be seen as guilty but not enough evidence to prove it. that's great Do you not travel much?

[rwh11385]

Work in progress:

When Obama came for the rich’s income,
No one spoke out because they wanted some of the wealth

When he went after oil companies
They remained silent because they didn’t work for an oil company

When he went after people’s guns,
They didn’t speak out because they didn’t own a gun

When he comes for freedom of speech,
No one will be able to speak up.

[Charlie]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_win_causes_obsessive

Oh my.

-Charlie

[Farbin Kaiber]

Work in progress:

When Obama came for the rich’s income,
No one spoke out because they wanted some of the wealth

When he went after oil companies
They remained silent because they didn’t work for an oil company

When he went after people’s guns,
They didn’t speak out because they didn’t own a gun

When he comes for freedom of speech,
No one will be able to speak up.

Nice spin on an old, and popular quote.

[rwh11385]

Nice spin on an old, and popular quote.

you'll like this reference since you liked the one earlier...


Does anyone remember how the Empire gained strength? They came and said there needed to be change, that the established government was outdated and couldn't respond to the needs of the people. They asked to put trust in a leader who would make everything better...

And after mowing down the opposition and threats to his government, there wasn't many left to stand up to the Empire.

And no one say it coming, turning a representative government into a tyranny.

To bring that quote back here from earlier in this thread:

The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing how it happened.

Norman Thomas - Socialist Party Presidential candidate (1976)

[Farbin Kaiber]

Does anyone remember how the Empire gained strength? They came and said there needed to be change, that the established government was outdated and couldn't respond to the needs of the people. They asked to put trust in a leader who would make everything better...

And after mowing down the opposition and threats to his government, there wasn't many left to stand up to the Empire.

And no one say it coming, turning a representative government into a tyranny.

The way you put it above, it sounds like the plotline to so many sci-fi/fantasy films/novels. We ALL know how those end.

[rwh11385]

The way you put it above, it sounds like the plotline to so many sci-fi/fantasy films/novels. We ALL know how those end.

Well, my favorite novel niche is utopian ones: Brave New World, The Giver, Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and of course many more exist. If you look at some of these, they usually have positive intentions of their change, to usually reduce human suffering. But of course, people don't realize that it comes at the stake of freedom, or joy. As the government tries to protect people from the bad, they create bigger problems or destroy any shred of liberty. And happiness does not ensue when the government tries to make everything better. Like the cases of socialist governments, there is a failure from principle to application. (All theories have some failure in their extremes, this book discusses that following different philosophies to their ridiculous end: http://www.amazon.com/Curious-Enligh.../dp/1859840736 )

Similar to Sir Winston Churchill's quote: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.", capitalism may not be perfect but fails the least compared to others.

Capitalism can have its problems and issues, but it can adjust and change. The housing bubble existed and no one wanted to deal with it, and it burst but we can adjust and recover from it. When government draws up control to protect its citizens, there is no adaption really available as after the "change" occurs, change is a threat to the government. Therefore, free minds are dealt with severely. Freedom is the threat to government and more government never results in more Liberty.

These concepts and storyline can be seen, of course, in V for Vendetta. The government creates a reason for the people to want them to come in and make people safe. But you know the old saying, absolute power corrupts absolutely. A free voice is the thing the people in power were most afraid of. You have the government "protecting people from themselves" while also wanting to protect itself from the freedom of the people.

Right now between work and life, I'm attempting to read Freakonomics and finish 1984, and then its onto the Island.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I just re-read Fahrenheit 451, and have been returning to the concepts of some of Vonnegut's work as well. I've been drawn back to the books I first read in HS.