Military

[gwb72tii]

Can you ever make a valid point about anything? All your posts ever consist of is name calling. Aren't you pushing 60? I would hope that by the time I am 60 I will have moved past arguing with and insulting 20 somethings on an internet forum.

BTW, I do not go to Fairhaven but Bellingham in general has excellent weed.

fair enough and LOL

i was you years ago. grew up in the bay area in the 60's/70's. the founding of the ant-war radicalism of its time, haight asbury, beserkley, etc. i was basically a young man that didn't have the benefit of making my own mistakes and learning from them, which includes attitudes towards the usa and our military. i never served. i was 18 in 1972, turning 19 in jan 73, my draft # was 33 and i was glad nixon repealed the draft.
now that i have kids that are old enough to serve and be put in harms way, there is no amount of words that can express the respect i have for our military and all they do, voluntarily. that's why i react to anyone who says things as you did re bigwave man or towards our country. once you see for yourself all the good we do around the world that we never ask or get credit for you'll understand. i don;t want this to be a i'm older than you and know better bullshit kind of thing. all this is in the history books, but is never taught in college.
here is a serious question you might ask your prof when u get the chance, and i am dead serious. ask him/her who won the tet offensive in viet nam. the real answer is the USA. it was a devestating defeat for the communists, yet was portrayed as the opposite by domestic main stream media in our country. the viet cong/communists sued for peace, we signed, and promptly abandoned our allies after congress defunded our military. the end result was the khmer rouge and the killing fields of cambodia, 3,000,000 dead.
all of this is known history for anyone to "discover". yet the opposite is presented as truth. do some of your own critical thinking and challenge your profs. it might surprise you just how little they "know".

btw - age is a relative kinda thing
LOL

[BigWaveDave]

Can you ever make a valid point about anything? All your posts ever consist of is name calling. Aren't you pushing 60? I would hope that by the time I am 60 I will have moved past arguing with and insulting 20 somethings on an internet forum.

BTW, I do not go to Fairhaven but Bellingham in general has excellent weed.

Comrade,

Sure there are alot of things people can be doing. What could you be doing? You could be reading up on how Communism ruined Bud Day's life for a couple years. You could be out banging some college sweetheart you got. Maybe go to starbucks and get a sweet Latte and some Biscotti. But we are here, just having a discussion. I am not getting mad. I am actually reading what you are saying and actually thinking about it.

Just because he maybe 60 does not mean he does not have something great to offer you. Anyway...I know why I am here....Looking for the perfect e30 replacement.

[BigWaveDave]

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this post? A soldier is telling me that I don't have my own opinions and that I can't form a single thought for myself? You don't have your own opinions. You are in college and have never experienced the World for yourself.

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?We do allow for discussion and debate in the barracks actually. It stimulates the mind and gets people focused on what they are doing and get this, the big one, Why. No they did not ask, we were pretty much ready to go 6 months prior, did you not get the memo? Why would they put it to a vote, it was pretty unanimous. Especially being a 20 something surrounded by other 20 somethings ready to go.

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep. We are taught to respect authority and things that are to be questioned, we question. Some times we are given the "shut up and color" but we learn to see the bigger picture. Sheep we might be, because we all look the same most days. You sir are also a sheep. One that is educated.

Comrade,

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before, but when you started speaking Marxism, etc, then mentioned your so called "credentials". You quickly became the puppet for your professors mouths. What I am basically saying is even though you find hypocrisy on my post by telling you that you need a real world view point, you, yourself have formed your own hypocrisy. This is why. You explain about communism and socialism etc, Correct? But have you ever lived there? Me, 8 years. East Germany, then West germany. Have you ever seen a society grow by your actions and your actions alone? I have personally removed Al Q, from a neighborhood and seen kids come back to the streets again. People go to Mosques again, shopping continues. Have you ever witnessed somebody vote for the FIRST time and be proud of it. Two thumbs right here. Have you ever protected something that was never yours?

But you have things I have never done. You have smoked weed. You have had your ideals changed by the people around you. You probably voted for the first Black president. Me, no. I have never smoked weed, I have never had my ideals changed based on reading and having a professor "school" me on the ins and outs of what his professor did the same of. I went to public school. I went to college, I went to basic training where I learned the chain of command. I am a soldier. Not a robot, I am a human and I still make judgment calls based on the welfare of my men then me. Do you make judgment calls for your subordinates? You have probably never led anything in your entire life that did not have safety precautions in place.

This is what I mean by your hypocrisy vs mine. You have somewhat of an education. Good on you. I never got the opportunity.

[Hallen]

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep.

Slow down there cowboy. Those statements there really show your ignorance and biases towards the military.

We are taught to obey the commands of our commanders. We respect the chain of command. We cannot question the legal orders of our commanders (outside certain extremely rare circumstances), or job is to do or die. It is an honor to serve and the biggest burden you will ever carry.

However, there is NOTHING in a military command that orders you to vote one way or another. There are no politics. You can have your own opinion. Soldiers are human and even though they have fewer rights than many convicted and incarcerated criminals, we are still free people. Our soldiers are taught to think for themselves and to innovate. "Adapt and overcome" is our motto. That is one of the reasons we are the best in the world. Our soldiers do think for themselves. You can't just turn that stuff off and turn into an automaton. We don't want that type in the military anyway.

To suggest that because we respect authority (and trust me, that is very relative) does not mean that we take everything "they" say without question. That is one of the stupidest statements I have heard in a long while. (BTW, "they" is very undefined).

If my commander orders me to take that hill, then that is what we do. If my commander orders me to believe that Aliens from Planet X are going to destroy the world in 2012, then I ignore him. It is asinine to believe that military training removes intelligence and free will from a person. It is the ultimate form of free will in that you volunteer to obey the legal commands of your superiors because you understand that you are the protector of the nation.

It is a very good thing that soldiers are not sheep as you describe. If we were, then you would be wearing a swastika right now or listening to your political officer teach you all about the evils of having free will. Go ahead, hold onto your opinion, voice them where you want. We protect that freedom for you. Exercise it. It doesn't mean that you are right. It also doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. And, it also doesn't mean that some tired soldier doesn't bust your chops when you say it. After All, how bad could it hurt to be hit by a sheep.

Soldiers are taught to lead the way, be independent and yes, to follow orders. But orders are generally very vague. It is up to you to take care of the rest.

Now, if you want to badmouth the military, please, join up. Do your stint honorably and then blast away. You will be a better man for the experience.

you're a fucking wet behind the ears ingrate you moron
bet you're a fairhaven type, eh? good ganja?

you want to be a real radical son, go back and ask your profs why the chinese communists exterminated 30,000,000 of their own people, or why cuba, that communist eden is still a 3rd world country run by the military where brutal physical oppression is still a normal way of life.

the dif between the military and you is light years, and you're too ignorant to see or appreciate it

Can you ever make a valid point about anything? All your posts ever consist of is name calling. Aren't you pushing 60? I would hope that by the time I am 60 I will have moved past arguing with and insulting 20 somethings on an internet forum.

BTW, I do not go to Fairhaven but Bellingham in general has excellent weed.

[atomic]

This is a good post. I am very liberal and have nothing bad to say about the military. I have even considered, and still consider joining.

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this post? A soldier is telling me that I don't have my own opinions and that I can't form a single thought for myself?

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep.

Considering how out spoken you are with your views towards this you might want to reconsider wanting to join a branch of the military... :up:

You should also thank those who have/are serving as they have provided you with the very right to express your views on this subject. Since you have not done so as of yet in this thread and afterall, if it was not for the Military fighting for this country and your rights, that you might not even be able to spew what you are if this was a different country like in China or Cuba...

[Money$hit]

H0mless turns tricks for doobies.

[LINUS]

Holmes -

I think the message is that you are in college - it's a great place to "find yourself", or whatever, get some girls, score some weed, and see some bands -- but you ever notice where job applications ask for something like a Masters OR 2-3 years experience in a job?

It's just that you are learning how the world COULD work, not how it DOES work - in fact, you get a better grade for selling the most wildly imaginable idea if you can spin it right.

You are clearly smart, just drop the college doubletalk like you're writing an essay - nobody is biting.

[gwb72tii]

you're a fucking wet behind the ears ingrate you moron
bet you're a fairhaven type, eh? good ganja?

you want to be a real radical son, go back and ask your profs why the chinese communists exterminated 30,000,000 of their own people, or why cuba, that communist eden is still a 3rd world country run by the military where brutal physical oppression is still a normal way of life.

the dif between the military and you is light years, and you're too ignorant to see or appreciate it

Your credentials mean dick in the real world. So you took some classes. Listened to a couple of professors that probably dodged Vietnam or were to chicken shit. You have picked up their views and passed them off as your own. Your credentials are nothing. You can't form a single thought yourself. You have ZERO real world experience. All your knowledge is being passed off from someone else, who probably was not even there anyway.

Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this post? A soldier is telling me that I don't have my own opinions and that I can't form a single thought for myself?

I suppose they allow plenty of debate and discussion in the barracks don't they? I suppose your commanding officers asked what you thought when the order was given to invade Iraq? Did they put it up for vote?

No. From the day you enter boot camp you are taught to not question authority and take everything they say without question. There is no room for constructive debate and discussion in the military. You are a sheep.

[Hallen]

Funny because I have taken multiple university courses on socialism and have written many papers on various subjects within the realm of socialism. These include a Karl Marx biography, a paper focusing on Historical Materialism and a paper contrasting Libertarian Socialism with Authoritarian Socialism. What are your credentials?

Yeah, I like the part in Marx' biography where he works diligently 12 hours a day in the public library to craft his Utopian messages while his 8 (was it?) children and wife starved at home because he didn't have a job. Sounds like the kind of guy I want as my roll model.

Marx was a fool. He was a dreamer and I think he was slightly deranged. I mean, who lets his own kids starve like that? Anyway, my point in the long post above was that communism, even the pure form that Marx penned, is not economically viable. It can never work. Communism is just a political platform that can easily be used by the power mongers and unscrupulous people of the world to grab power.

If you are still in school, try to find a course on the Austrian theory of Economics. I bet you can't. It is well documented and researched over the years but it isn't taught. Hell, you can hardly find a class on Classicalist Economic theory in universities. Why? Because your instructors don't believe in these theories. They believe in Keynesian Economics which is just a short hop from Socialism. That is what they teach. So, you have the opportunity to expand your knowledge beyond what they teach by researching these on your own. Then you can start finally seeing the counter arguments that throw the wrench into the works of what is taught in universities.

[BigWaveDave]

Funny because I have taken multiple university courses on socialism and have written many papers on various subjects within the realm of socialism. These include a Karl Marx biography, a paper focusing on Historical Materialism and a paper contrasting Libertarian Socialism with Authoritarian Socialism. What are your credentials?

Your credentials mean dick in the real world. So you took some classes. Listened to a couple of professors that probably dodged Vietnam or were to chicken shit. You have picked up their views and passed them off as your own. Your credentials are nothing. You can't form a single thought yourself. You have ZERO real world experience. All your knowledge is being passed off from someone else, who probably was not even there anyway.

[gwb72tii]

Funny because I have taken multiple university courses on socialism and have written many papers on various subjects within the realm of socialism. These include a Karl Marx biography, a paper focusing on Historical Materialism and a paper contrasting Libertarian Socialism with Authoritarian Socialism. What are your credentials?

have you ever opened your eyes to the real world?

this is one of the problems with higher education imho. theory is one thing, reality often is quite another. there are no examles of communism doing anything other than benefit a few at the expense of many. in practice it is one of the most cruel forms of government ever

[LINUS]

egal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: \-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1905
1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges
2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

Sorry Holmes - I'm not buying that. If I do some really cool stuff, I want big $$$$.
If I do nothing, then I expect nothing.

Social pecking orders are what drive genetic survival - beautiful, genetically sound people find others like themselves attractive - and the opposite is true too. I think the same can be said for financial aspects too. Welfare mamas don't normally end up with the "Bill Gates" types, and that's pretty easy to 'do the math' on too.

Capitalism rocks, unless you are unmotivated. My opinion. The utopian idea that we are "all the same" just never works.

[Hallen]

It is a fallacy to say that communism is bad unless you think that egalitarianism and freedom from authority are wrong. That is true communism. Considering most of America endorses these principles, you simply cannot argue that communism justified our entrance into Korea and Vietnam. It sure as hell threatened all the rich capitalists though and their so called way of life. But you don't belong to that group. You might know them as the ones who make all the "important" decisions but don't actually sacrifice anything themselves.

When I think of why we fought the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and World War II, the first thing that comes to mind is civil rights. Each of these wars was fought against an entity which was restricting the rights and freedoms of human beings and threatening their very way of life. That is what makes violent conflict justified. War is not justified however when it means making money, acquiring land or possessions, gaining power and influence. Every war since World War II and the majority of wars before then were fought for these selfish purposes.

Also, you can't make the argument that your friends died for people to weak to protect themselves. First, you're implying that anyone that isn't in the war is weak. Second, did you ever stop to think that some people never asked for protection? I never asked for protection from Saddam but I was fooled into thinking I needed it. If he came knockin at my door I would defend myself. You really shouldn't feel all high and mighty walking down the street telling yourself that all the "weak" people around you need you, because they sure as hell don't.

I really wish I could live in your world. Really. It sounds so nice and snugly...

First of all, communism is simply not economically viable. It never has been and never will be. Secondly, the communists of this world have done more to restrict human rights and to restrict "rights and freedoms of human beings" than just about anything else in the history of man.

Your assertion that Korea and Vietnam were misguided and solely aimed at protecting rich capitalists is really amazing. You can argue all day long about the politics involved and the benefits, but what you cannot deny is that the propagation of communism over the world was a real and present threat to the sovereignty of the US and other free countries. Communism is a blight. Not because it preaches the elevation of the workers or that we all share a common goal. There is nothing wrong with that. It is a blight because it is not economically viable and it insures the subjugation of the masses by just a few of the powerful elite. Exactly opposite of what it purports to do. (and far more devastating than the "elite" that you suggest that we have here)

Iraq and WMD was a side issue that got turned into THE issue. WMD's were in Iraq. We had dated or flawed intelligence that said they were still there. The media is what tied WMD's to validation for invading Sadam's regime. The people of Iraq had no rights and were horribly enslaved by a mad dictator. By your definitions of why we should go to war, Iraq sounds like a perfect candidate.

When you swallow the limp dick of the modern media and then spew out things like Iraq was unjustified and therefore those soldiers died for nothing, then you are doing the same thing as calling soldiers "baby killers". They have accomplished more than you can imagine by going to Iraq. In 30 years, if the Iraqis can manage to solidify their government, I think you will see that what our soldiers have done is a miracle for the majority of people in Iraq.

The point is, these soldiers stepped up to protect our Country, or way of life, our freedoms and our interests. These all go together. They did one hell of a good job of it too. You can talk all day about protecting yourself if Sadam comes knocking on your door but protecting your own sorry life is not the same as dedicating yourself to protecting ALL of the lives in the US. And if Sadam did come knocking, rest assured it would have been way, way too late for you to do a damn thing about it. You can't wait until the enemy has massed at your borders after taking over the rest of the world before you decide to do something about it. You have to act in the best interests of the Country well before that stage in this day and age. That is why WWII was as bad as it was. We waited way to long to get into it. War is way to fast moving and mobile today to wait until the threat actually starts scaring you in your bed at night. Our weapons today are way to lethal. If you can see the threat, you are already dead.

You can disagree that Iraq should have been a target in our war on Terrorism. But your logic leaves a lot of gaps. You cannot however argue that it wasn't justified. Sadam needed to be removed for our sakes and for the people's of Iraq sake. It is just too bad that it wasn't done much sooner than it was.