USA's Continued Economic Suicide.

[nando]

again, you obviously don't know how stocks work. It's only gambling if you're a speculator looking for a quick easy gain. I guess you don't know the meanings of earnings and dividends and what they mean to the stock price either, but like I said - your loss.

I never said i was putting all of my savings into stocks, either, because diversification is the first rule of investing. ;)

[joshh]

again, you obviously don't know how stocks work. It's only gambling if you're a speculator looking for a quick easy gain. I guess you don't know the meanings of earnings and dividends and what they mean to the stock price either, but like I said - your loss.

I never said i was putting all of my savings into stocks, either, because diversification is the first rule of investing. ;)

It's always gambling. No one thought Enron would simply go belly up...that is gambling. Nando meet reality.

[nando]

no, because they never bothered to look closer to see where all the huge returns were coming from.

Due dilligence. Plus if you didn't have all of your portfolio in one stock, you minimize the risk of something like that happening to you (remember diversification?). It's not like there weren't thousands of other profitable companies you could have owned at the time.

heres your reality - living on a $500 a week social security check trying to make ends meet when your prescriptions cost $700 a month.

[joshh]

Look where? How is an investor supposed to see without a serious tour of the companies real product? They can't and most of the time don't.
Hey, if you gamble on a bunch of different things, you're bound to "win"...or not. "Give us your money".

Not sure where your comments about SS are coming from, I said nothing about it.

[nando]

Hey, if you gamble on a bunch of different things, you're bound to "win"...or not. "Give us your money"..

try that method in a casino and see how far you get.

it's simple statistics. there is 100 years of market history, and then there are your wild and moronic claims that investing in a company by purchasing it's stock is the same thing as gambling.

the social security comment is because other than investing, what else are you doing to do for retirement? because you can't possibly save enough cash in to live off of. it has to be invested somewhere where it can grow.

[Hallen]

What fuels a company to do everything they can to cut costs and even go as far as lobby government officials for support?
It's okay if a coporation pays people shit as long as they are making big profits? Or even when they make big profits...or that helps them make big profits.
It's a morality question not a business question.
If you had a chance to hire slave labor so you could afford that yacht you always wanted, would you?
Too many people are too willing to fuck over the next guy for more money.
It could easily be pointed out that my arguement is a joke because the law says it's okay to pay people pennies (minimum wage) for their hard work. But we both know you can't make it living off of minimum wage without working 80 hours a week. And still living in a shack.
In the mean time the difference between the rich and the poor is being ever stretched.
Greed got this country in this position to begin with, greed wont get us out of it. And neither will stock owners beating up CEO's for more money.
The stock market is a fucking joke as it is. How about trading actual product instead of "projected" product. We know where that took thousands of stock holders and employees of Enron.
I had my own company for several years (very small mind you) and made it a point not to hire anyone at minimum wage or even the illegals that hang around Home Depots or up by Burnside (for less than minimum wage) because it's fucked up to do so. The least I paid was $15 an hour, and I got hard work from the people that worked for me.
Companies pay shit wages because they can get away with it. And you get things like NAFTA from this idea. Making money (for yourself) is more important than the people that work for you. That is how big business operates in America.
We send jobs to Mexico for corporations to make money not to help mexico.
I'm not opposed to people making a killing from their businesses or from them buying stock in a business, just don't do it on the broken backs of others.

Wow, that's really misguided. It IS a business question and not a morality question. You pay people what they are worth to you as an employer and a business. You don't pay people what you want to pay them, you pay them what they are worth to you as a business. That's the only way to stay in business. If you go out of business, what good have you done your overpaid workers?

If you make big profits and you think it was your people that made it happen, pay them a bonus. Loyal, well paid people provide more productivity and a better chance at success. Smart business owners/CEO's know this.

People getting paid high wages because the union says you have to gives you employees that are not compensated based on their worth. They are less productive and motivated because they get the same pay regardless (which is why so many government workers are such dicks to work with).

If you have no skills and can be replaced by anybody, then be prepared to get very low pay. That's just the way it is. Anybody can sweep floors and clean up. If somebody is conscientious and hard working with that job, give them a more demanding job with higher pay. Or, just pay them a bit more to keep them around.

In this day and age, you shouldn't keep a job if it is low pay unless you have no skills. You shouldn't keep a job if they treat you like crap. There are other jobs out there. Sure, right now things suck, but it will improve quickly, move on when it does. Then, that employer that sucked so much will either fix their ways or go out of business.

If the company makes big profits, somehow they have done this by exploiting their workers and are evil because they don't give a big hunk of that money to the workers. What a crock. You really, really have to get this idea out of your head.

As an employee, you have agreed to do a job at a certain rate of pay. It is secure. There is little to no financial risk to you. You will get paid. Whoever financed this operation is taking the risk, not you. They get the big rewards. You get your pay check BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU AGREED TO. If you can do it better, then start your own damn company and you take the risk. Then we'll see just how willing you are to give all of the money that you earned to the employees who cleaned your bathroom.

Philanthropy is wonderful and I think that everybody has a responsibility to make their communities a better place to live. How you choose to do that is your own business. However, the Government should not mandate forced philanthropy for business in the form of minimum wage standards and other pay requirements. It simply does not work and in the end, hurts the very people it was designed to help.

[mrsleeve]

People getting paid high wages because the union says you have to gives you employees that are not compensated based on their worth. They are less productive and motivated because they get the same pay regardless

Nice generalization, Thats not the case in 90% of the union membership. The UAW is not the model you should be basing you views on.

This is the 3rd time I have had to post this in 2 days on 3 different forums due to ignorance, what the hell is with all the union bashing lately

I know can normally tell the the difference between work done by a union hand verses a non union guy. Its my job to find defects in someone elses work, and I can look at a piece of film from 2 differant jobs and 90% time tell you which was done by a union hand.

Also most guys in the trades consider them selves Professionals in their given trade, and conduct them selves accordingly and 9 out of 10 are better trained more productive and have better safety records than the non union guys. That also goes to say you get what you pay for when it comes to trades labor, not to say there aren't some lazy pos that leach on the system but they only work when everyone else is busy and are normally the first to get run off when less guys are needed. Also the ones that are not professional and do the job in a efficient manor get run off at any time and the next guy is called.

Lots of things have changed in the last 10-15 years we have to compete with outfits that pay 1/2 or less our pay packages in a fair bid system, in many instances we get more done in a day and have to only do it once with less "redo's" dig ups, and mistakes than our counter parts. This is due to our people making a good wage and benefits package, the better training, and pride in our work Vs most of our non union competition who mostly dont give a shit about the work they leave behind.

Oh I am a card carrying member of the
IUOE local 112 (international union of operating Engineers)
and LIUNA local 1686 (laborers international union of north America)

[Hallen]

Nice generalization, Thats not the case in 90% of the union membership. The UAW is not the model you should be basing you views on...

Oh I am a card carrying member of the
IUOE local 112 (international union of operating Engineers)
and LIUNA local 1686 (laborers international union of north America)

I am not trying to dispute that. But if that is all you got out of what I wrote, then you missed the point.

Are you saying that these same honorable and conscientious workers wouldn't do the same level of work if they weren't in a union? What about all the other professions and trades in the US that get good pay, good working conditions and good benefits and are not part of a union? How does that happen?

Cut rate work is always going to happen. There is always a shyster out there willing to break the rules and push the limits. Most of this kind of thing can be taken care of with laws that already exist and by professional development and certification. If you think it is worth it to pay yet another tax because you think you get something out of it, that's your business. But don't you feel a little bit guilty knowing that you are not getting paid based off of your own skill, but by what some highly paid union representative negotiated (some would say extorted) with your company? If your trade is a highly skilled one, and your skills have a value, why do you need the union?

The reason, in general, that I don't like unions is because it is a monopoly and deprives me of the ability to work a certain type of job if I don't want to pay the union. Just like the government, I don't believe the unions are there to help the employees; I think the union is there to help the union. (And I think that HR reps in corporations are evil and will be relegated to the special level of hell)

But, I will retract my statement about unions and say instead that fixed pay levels for jobs is a house of cards and generally leads to more problems than it fixes. I don't beleive that unions will bring about the downfall of western civilization though. And, yes, this is all just my opinion.

[joshh]

Wow, that's really misguided. It IS a business question and not a morality question. You pay people what they are worth to you as an employer and a business. You don't pay people what you want to pay them, you pay them what they are worth to you as a business. That's the only way to stay in business. If you go out of business, what good have you done your overpaid workers?

If you make big profits and you think it was your people that made it happen, pay them a bonus. Loyal, well paid people provide more productivity and a better chance at success. Smart business owners/CEO's know this.

People getting paid high wages because the union says you have to gives you employees that are not compensated based on their worth. They are less productive and motivated because they get the same pay regardless (which is why so many government workers are such dicks to work with).

If you have no skills and can be replaced by anybody, then be prepared to get very low pay. That's just the way it is. Anybody can sweep floors and clean up. If somebody is conscientious and hard working with that job, give them a more demanding job with higher pay. Or, just pay them a bit more to keep them around.

In this day and age, you shouldn't keep a job if it is low pay unless you have no skills. You shouldn't keep a job if they treat you like crap. There are other jobs out there. Sure, right now things suck, but it will improve quickly, move on when it does. Then, that employer that sucked so much will either fix their ways or go out of business.

If the company makes big profits, somehow they have done this by exploiting their workers and are evil because they don't give a big hunk of that money to the workers. What a crock. You really, really have to get this idea out of your head.

As an employee, you have agreed to do a job at a certain rate of pay. It is secure. There is little to no financial risk to you. You will get paid. Whoever financed this operation is taking the risk, not you. They get the big rewards. You get your pay check BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU AGREED TO. If you can do it better, then start your own damn company and you take the risk. Then we'll see just how willing you are to give all of the money that you earned to the employees who cleaned your bathroom.

Philanthropy is wonderful and I think that everybody has a responsibility to make their communities a better place to live. How you choose to do that is your own business. However, the Government should not mandate forced philanthropy for business in the form of minimum wage standards and other pay requirements. It simply does not work and in the end, hurts the very people it was designed to help.

Paying someone what they are worth is morality and good business. But...

How many people do you know that work their asses off and get paid what they deserve? Deserve not what they agreed to...Oh but that doesn't matter because they "agreed" to do the job for X amount of money.
Most companies will always pay as little as they "possibly" can instead of giving a guy a good wage. Then walk away because as you said "they took the risk".
But what you fail to see is your employees are your lifeblood if you own a company.
When you under pay people you tend to get shitty work. This of course is the opposite with the union.

Philanthropy...lol, that's for owners that don't have the balls to fire people.

I've seen far more greedy owners of businesses than ones that are willing to see that their 2 million dollar home is in part because of their employees. And I've seen guys stick with these people for years because well, they don't know better. And all they get is their basic wage and maybe a bonus during Christmas.

If the company makes big profits, somehow they have done this by exploiting their workers and are evil because they don't give a big hunk of that money to the workers. What a crock. You really, really have to get this idea out of your head.

Hey, you can generalize all you like but this does happen. You said it not me.

[mrsleeve]

Hallen: In fact I agree with the a bit of you original post, I just get testy with blanket statements about unions based on the UAW model.
Josh: I do agree with you too that as an owner your employees are what make your business and make you money an should be compensated accordingly, unfortunately thats not how it is any more. If you have no skills thats one thing but there are many skilled people out there that are getting the shaft this is also true and all in the name of the new business model.

I am highly skilled in few trades and no I dont really need the union to find work, but because of the union the pay scale for non union is held up some what to union wages but there are still a large number that take advantage of their guys and pay them like shit and charge the customer close to what we get for a billed hour.

Actually I find my own work at union contractors, because of my card they know I am well trained and good at my job. if there is any doubt they can make a 2 min call to the hall and see if I have had any issues at other contractors at any time, and see if my certs check out. Its less of risk on a new hand for them, that I am good at my job and a trust worthy employee , as they will send me out 100k dollar rig and highly radioactive materials to be used around the public. If I fuck up that can mean millions in lawsuits and fines for the company. Our signatory contractors have not had one over exposure of company personnel or the public in nearly 25 years, but our non union competitors that pay techs 12-15 an hour an helpers 8-10 with no bennies get poked for that shit all the time.

I think there is a place for both Philanthropy and more people getting a better shake out of it. It seems a bit lopsided at the moment

[joshh]

I'm adding a couple things here.
Unions are different, I admit. I've known and do know some seriously hard working union workers. And they get paid what they deserve imo. But they still bitch about being underpaid. Many are unwilling to see what they have is far better than non Union workers doing the same job.
Then there is the UAE and woodworkers union that are mostly worthless. And strain our system.

Don't get me started on some of their rules.

[blunttech]

Nice generalization, Thats not the case in 90% of the union membership. The UAW is not the model you should be basing you views on.

This is the 3rd time I have had to post this in 2 days on 3 different forums due to ignorance, what the hell is with all the union bashing lately

I know can normally tell the the difference between work done by a union hand verses a non union guy. Its my job to find defects in someone elses work, and I can look at a piece of film from 2 differant jobs and 90% time tell you which was done by a union hand.

Also most guys in the trades consider them selves Professionals in their given trade, and conduct them selves accordingly and 9 out of 10 are better trained more productive and have better safety records than the non union guys. That also goes to say you get what you pay for when it comes to trades labor, not to say there aren't some lazy pos that leach on the system but they only work when everyone else is busy and are normally the first to get run off when less guys are needed. Also the ones that are not professional and do the job in a efficient manor get run off at any time and the next guy is called.

Lots of things have changed in the last 10-15 years we have to compete with outfits that pay 1/2 or less our pay packages in a fair bid system, in many instances we get more done in a day and have to only do it once with less "redo's" dig ups, and mistakes than our counter parts. This is due to our people making a good wage and benefits package, the better training, and pride in our work Vs most of our non union competition who mostly dont give a shit about the work they leave behind.

Oh I am a card carrying member of the
IUOE local 112 (international union of operating Engineers)
and LIUNA local 1686 (laborers international union of north America)

what a complete crock of shit. plain and simple. employees should be paid on merit. if you suck at your job you get fired. if you are good you earn more. unions are killing us and have been for years. take teachers and tenure. even you sleeve couldnt get fired for being a teacher unless those pics of you molesting boys in the locker room got out.
competition is a good thing and makes us strive to all be better at what we do. instead we are happy being "average" and its downhill from here. look around you fool. fuck unions

[thereisnoyun]

the biggest problem with the USA has been and always will be "credit"

credit is a one of those things, what we call, buy nothing with nothing kind of system. Where people can "get rich" quick. It is the make shift american dream, and it is the main reason why the economy failed. What we need is not to throw money at "banks" but true banking reforms.

We are on the path to the next great depression. If not the third world war. US is just printing money to stay alive, when money become diluted into the market, we will really feel the hit with inflation pressure.

[nando]

I hated my union job. The worst thing about a union job IMO is once you get to the top of the pay scale, that's it - you can't go any further. Well, unless you count the 3% raise that they stretch over 2-3 years which barely keeps you up with the rising cost of living. On the outside it looks like you're getting a good deal, but really it's a dead end with nowhere to expand to. That and the fucking dues.

I am lucky that I work for a very good (employee owned) company that has a more long term view. No ceilings on pay either - it's based on performance and how long you've been around.

the biggest problem with the USA has been and always will be "credit"

credit is a one of those things, what we call, buy nothing with nothing kind of system. Where people can "get rich" quick. It is the make shift american dream, and it is the main reason why the economy failed. What we need is not to throw money at "banks" but true banking reforms.

We are on the path to the next great depression. If not the third world war. US is just printing money to stay alive, when money become diluted into the market, we will really feel the hit with inflation pressure.

thank you for this thoughtful and informative post! My life is complete now.

[Money$hit]

We are on the path to the next great depression. If not the third world war. US is just printing money to stay alive, when money become diluted into the market, we will really feel the hit with inflation pressure.

This is relative really. Everyone is monetarily loose right now. We are actually printing tons of money, but still less than other countries comparitively. Were in a really odd economic situation right now, where we are experiencing deflation, but also simultaneously printing scads of money.

It completely defys the Quantity Theory of Money.