Since we're here...

[Farbin Kaiber]

^ So, they are all about reform, but the methods that they will use is big government, social programs, and handouts.

[mar1t1me]

What about us socially liberal, financially conservative folks?

I'm with you. I don't want laws for victimless crimes, either. Especially bedroom laws.

Bad laws erode respect for good ones.

[87e30]

This is not over-simplified, it is just plain wrong. Liberals want reform that is all. Liberalism isn't about big government, social programs and handouts. You've been watching too much Fox News buddy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal

Of all those definitions it does not once say that a liberal is one who want's big government and handouts. You have been misinformed.

I'm assuming liberal equates to democrat. Because you definitely are not a republican. And democratic "reform" typically leads to social programs, such as the current health care bill, which does in fact create a larger government. (more government positions, larger budget, we still won't know the exact impact). Whether or not you are for or against you agree it creates a larger government, and comes as a "reform" program from a liberal democratic policy, right? Or am I wrong here too?

[E30Kaiser]

Liberalism in the USA and Liberalism in general are not the same thing. Our country has very warped examples of both Liberalism and Conservatism.

[87e30]

^ So, they are all about reform, but the methods that they will use is big government, social programs, and handouts.

I do find the other have of being liberally socially quite interesting. Such as the idea of creating more freedoms, when in a very large sense more government programs take away freedoms.

Both parties face incredible ironies.

[LBJefferies]

I'm assuming liberal equates to democrat. Because you definitely are not a republican. And democratic "reform" typically leads to social programs, such as the current health care bill, which does in fact create a larger government. (more government positions, larger budget, we still won't know the exact impact). Whether or not you are for or against you agree it creates a larger government, and comes as a "reform" program from a liberal democratic policy, right? Or am I wrong here too?

First, you need to stop equating liberalism with the democratic party. They are very different. Second, democratic reform does not typically lead to social programs. Democratic reform can be just about anything that is different from the way things are and is voted upon. Third, the health care bill does not create a larger government. In fact, health insurance is still 100% PRIVATE and PRIVATE health insurance companies just expanded their customer base by nearly 50 million people.

[87e30]

First, you need to stop equating liberalism with the democratic party. They are very different. Second, democratic reform does not typically lead to social programs. Democratic reform can be just about anything that is different from the way things are and is voted upon. Third, the health care bill does not create a larger government. In fact, health insurance is still 100% PRIVATE and PRIVATE health insurance companies just expanded their customer base by nearly 50 million people.

I realize that the system is still private, but do you honestly believe that more tax dollars controlled by the government, required approved health care packages, and more government jobs does not equal a larger government? Or do you not believe the health care bill causes those things?

I understand liberal does not equal democrat. But, in this country it seems that if you are liberal you'll end up voting democrat and same goes for conservatives. Lesser of two evils, so the saying goes.

[LBJefferies]

I realize that the system is still private, but do you honestly believe that more tax dollars controlled by the government, required approved health care packages, and more government jobs does not equal a larger government? Or do you not believe the health care bill causes those things?

I understand liberal does not equal democrat. But, in this country it seems that if you are liberal you'll end up voting democrat and same goes for conservatives. Lesser of two evils, so the saying goes.

There are no more taxes being added for this bill. In fact, the government is offering subsidies to people who make less than 88k a year.

[E30Kaiser]

There are no more taxes being added for this bill. In fact, the government is offering subsidies to people who make less than 88k a year.

There are fee's being added for people who don't join up, which will cause more government oversight and you need people to do that.

[87e30]

There are no more taxes being added for this bill. In fact, the government is offering subsidies to people who make less than 88k a year.

But there has been an increased budget for this, so where is the money coming from?

[LBJefferies]

There are fee's being added for people who don't join up, which will cause more government oversight and you need people to do that.

That negligible because all normal people want health insurance.

[E30Kaiser]

That negligible because all normal people want health insurance.

All normal people don't need a fucking fee to make them get it. Poor people aren't normal either.

[LBJefferies]

All normal people don't need a fucking fee to make them get it. Poor people aren't normal either.

What fee's? There is only a fee if you don't purchase it and the subsidies are designed to make it affordable for those that can't afford it.

[E30Kaiser]

What fee's? There is only a fee if you don't purchase it and the subsidies are designed to make it affordable for those that can't afford it.

Yeah I was saying normal people don't need the threat of a fee, if they don't have it, to make them have health care.

[LBJefferies]

Yeah I was saying normal people don't need the threat of a fee, if they don't have it, to make them have health care.

Yes they do because now that people cannot be turned down for pre-existing conditions, people would just wait till they got sick before purchasing insurance. The penalty is there so people don't do this.

I don't necessarily agree with being forced to buy something but it makes sense. People are going to buy insurance regardless and having a penalty will prevent people from abusing the system.