The Damn Catholic Church...

[Farbin Kaiber]

They are fucking wackos that's what offends me. You don't even realize. I don't understand how you can find anything believable in that stupid book when it says the earth was created in 7 fucking days and it's only 4k years old. That's just fucking malarkey. It also says that ladders came from the sky creating the separate races or some shit like that, and that's just fucking lunatic like crazy bs.

It does not say it's 4k years old. I'm going to go into a separate explaination, but it will take a moment. brb.

[HarryPotter]

What's wrong with being thankful you have a meal to eat?

Because god didn't put the fuckin food on the table I did. Why should I thank some greater power for the work I do. If anything I'll thank myself.

[Stephen]

^^ not true, what fuels niiggers to be sports stars is sex, drugs, and most importnt money. so they can drive blinged out suvs, and so they can be all gangsta and carry nickel plated 9mm's tucked in their pants, which happen to be around their knees. religinon giving niiggers drive to be super stars, bull shit.

Wow dude. You are fucking worthless.

[HarryPotter]

Wow dude. You are fucking worthless.

That really was distasteful. I'm not gunna say I am not a bit racist, but that's just fucked up. I do have one black friend he is gone though, into the army. I'd say I'm racist in the way that if a pack of black men walked towards me down the street while I am alone at night, I'd probably run. :giggle:

[ck_taft325is]

I'll be the first to admit that I never really studied scripture - I found it's didactic stories vague and confusing and it is far too contradictory to ever take seriously, much less build a life on. But does it really tell you to question everything? Religion goes so far in the direction of substituting itself as truth that I can't imagine it actually promotes skepticism. If you're to believe all things in the Bible, you surely aren't reading it with a skeptic mind.

I feel about Religion (capital R) much differently than I do about religion. Capital R Religion has a lot of tangible products that are easy to hate - the fact that the Pope says passing out condoms in Africa would make the AIDS situation worse, the anti-homosexual propaganda spread by assholes like Rick Warren and Richard Cohen in Uganda that encouraged laws to put gay people in prison for life (and execute ones with AIDS), the fact that children are taught that the world began right around the time of the agricultural revolution, the wicked oppression of women, any wars driven by religion (as opposed to socioeconomic reasons), systematical fondling of children...I could obviously go on, but I don't think that this is the question you're asking.

As for lowercase R religion, I recognize people's need to feel like they're talking to a higher power - it's a very significant part of people's lives. I don't do it myself, because I think that any time you chalk something up to a higher power, good or bad, it makes you believe that you are less than what you can be. Sure, sometimes it's convenient to toss the responsibility of something bad happening on a higher power, or to have someone to thank when something good happens, but it's not honest. I personally never felt so liberated as when I embraced the fact that there is no God and stopped living a fear-driven life.

And I won't finish without saying that I acknowledge a lot of tangible good comes out of religion in the form of charitable work and giving, etc. I might be a bit of an idealist, but I just wish that people would be good for the sake of being good - I suppose that I might have a little too much faith in humanism, but that's the kind of world I would want to live in. Maybe then people will go to underprivileged areas not to pass out Bibles, but to hand out food and medicine and to educate.


I'm not sure I understand your last question...are you asking whether the Bible or people are the cause of evil coming out of religion?

Everything in bold is the direct result of "Religion" and the abuse of power. I'm not advocating or endorsing. I can't stand religion. By the teachings of Christ, he was killed by Religion for the sake of Religion. He called out the heavy handed, very Religious leaders of the time pretty much telling them they were wrong because they missed the whole point of the Bible. The Bible is not easy to understand and I'm still working on it.

I can't address everything you brought up right now, and I wish I could. Some things are a bit beyond me in answering to be honest and I just don't know. Some things would take a lot of time that I don't have currently. Honest, the whole first half, I'd suggest, if you have an open mind philosophically and want to explore, not convert or anything else, just educational, Timothy Keller's "The Reason for God". Sadly, most of the Christianity that gets attention are the bad bits. The ironically stupid books, authors, radicals, etc, etc... too often these mar and ruin any reasonable dialogue on the matter because it puts a pre-concieved idea of what it means to be a believer of God.

I do want to address one thing before I have to run. You said you don't believe in God or an after life and that it was liberating to be free of a fear-driven life. I've never experienced a fear driven life as a believer and having not always been one, I can reasonably hazard that I've logically and illogically truly lived as if God nor anything in the after life exists. If you truly commit to this philosophy, there's no reason to go to work. There's no reason to be a "productive" member of society. What's the point? When you commit yourself to this ideal and have unbound faith in it, you see when people tell you to better yourself, get a job, be nice, etc, etc... is ironic. Because in that logical reasoning the people that go to work, do the whole "productive society" bit, are just wasting their time. If I have nothing to worry about, die, rot and just end, why do I waste my time doing ANYTHING that I just flat out don't want to? To do anything I don't want to is stupid and short sighted from that theological/idealistic perch. Food for thought.

[ck_taft325is]

Because god didn't put the fuckin food on the table I did. Why should I thank some greater power for the work I do. If anything I'll thank myself.

That's YOUR belief. You can't respect others that have and hold the belief that God provides for them? How narrow minded and ignorant does that make you?

[ck_taft325is]

I'm not opening my mind to something so false and that has absolutely zero fact. It's a fucking book for god sakes, writtin by some guys.

Let me get this right... you haven't read it. You haven't read anyone else take on it and if you have, you discount it because it's simply related to a "stupid book"?

So you really have no basis in which to ground an opinion, you just spew YOUR beliefs on everyone else?

[HarryPotter]

That's not true at all, I just don't see how ANYONE can believe the damn religion. It makes no factual sense whatsoever. There is no fact in it, and like I said it was written by some dudes in a hut whenever the hell it was written. There are NO facts to back it up. NONE. I am open minded to things that have some type of scientific or factual evidence. Not some shit that's been altered by people throughout it's course on earth. Science doesn't use magic to come up with it's answers.

And are you telling me there are actually people out there who have read the bible in its entirety? Which one the old test or new? See this shit cracks me up. It's a fucking fiction novel with some good moral ground in it, that is all. Unless you have some cold hard facts to back up ANYTHING said in the book then please just stop. Cause I could care less. No facts no care.

BTW I don't have a belief. I guess that would make me what agnostic? Not really sure, nor do I give a shit. I like facts, not fiction.

[ck_taft325is]

I've read the whole Bible, cover to cover.

And again, you still have not pointed out ONE specific instance you have where you've actually not be a narrow minded prick about it.

What exactly do you believe in? Cold hard facts? Show me some.

[ck_taft325is]

You say NO facts.

Treat others how you would like to be treated?

Treat those that differ from your opinions and view with respect?

Pay your debts?

Forgive those that "sin" against you?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Don't steal, it can go bad for you?

People suck in general?

While all of these CAN be subjective, there is truth to them i.e. "fact" if you will.

[Bill 84 318i]

Everything in bold is the direct result of "Religion" and the abuse of power. I'm not advocating or endorsing. I can't stand religion. By the teachings of Christ, he was killed by Religion for the sake of Religion. He called out the heavy handed, very Religious leaders of the time pretty much telling them they were wrong because they missed the whole point of the Bible. The Bible is not easy to understand and I'm still working on it.

I can't address everything you brought up right now, and I wish I could. Some things are a bit beyond me in answering to be honest and I just don't know. Some things would take a lot of time that I don't have currently. Honest, the whole first half, I'd suggest, if you have an open mind philosophically and want to explore, not convert or anything else, just educational, Timothy Keller's "The Reason for God". Sadly, most of the Christianity that gets attention are the bad bits. The ironically stupid books, authors, radicals, etc, etc... too often these mar and ruin any reasonable dialogue on the matter because it puts a pre-concieved idea of what it means to be a believer of God.

I do want to address one thing before I have to run. You said you don't believe in God or an after life and that it was liberating to be free of a fear-driven life. I've never experienced a fear driven life as a believer and having not always been one, I can reasonably hazard that I've logically and illogically truly lived as if God nor anything in the after life exists. If you truly commit to this philosophy, there's no reason to go to work. There's no reason to be a "productive" member of society. What's the point? When you commit yourself to this ideal and have unbound faith in it, you see when people tell you to better yourself, get a job, be nice, etc, etc... is ironic. Because in that logical reasoning the people that go to work, do the whole "productive society" bit, are just wasting their time. If I have nothing to worry about, die, rot and just end, why do I waste my time doing ANYTHING that I just flat out don't want to? To do anything I don't want to is stupid and short sighted from that theological/idealistic perch. Food for thought.

Yeah, I do find it difficult to understand the Bible - especially the Old Testament. Yahweh was just a piece of work. I have a few specifics jotted down somewhere that are just doozies, if you really want them. You've also asked why people struggle with Christianity - for me, the thing where Christianity differs from other religions is that a man died, came back, and is going to come back again for the rapture. Christ was probably a helluva guy, but I can't subscribe to that supernatural stuff.

I have a long reading list at the moment but I'll check out that book when I get a chance. Sometimes they're a little militant for my taste, but I'd like to suggest you check out a book by Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris.

Your last paragraph is dangerous (but not completely irrational - I tend to give more credit to the human race than it deserves sometimes) thinking. First when I say fear driven, I refer to the notion of going to either heaven or hell after death - what a terrible situation. That paints life as black or white, when as you've mentioned, "right" is an extremely relative term.

Just because I don't believe in God or heaven or hell doesn't mean that I have no reason to be good - you can be a spiritual decent person without believing in a bearded man in the sky that has a vested interest in your well being. I think it is inherently human to be good, to be decent. I have a lot of faith in the human spirit, and I want to be good for that reason, and for my kids, and theirs. And if you look at it from a selfish perspective, I believe in reciprocal altruism, both direct and indirect, i.e.: I'm good to my neighbor so that they'll be good to me.

[HarryPotter]

You say NO facts.

Treat others how you would like to be treated?

Treat those that differ from your opinions and view with respect?

Pay your debts?

Forgive those that "sin" against you?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Don't steal, it can go bad for you?

People suck in general?

While all of these CAN be subjective, there is truth to them i.e. "fact" if you will.

Those aren't facts... Like I said it's a book based off fiction with some good morals in it.

Shit like evolution is based somewhat off facts and science. I told you I don't believe in any "one" thing. I like anything that is based off scientific evidence. I am very, very excited to see if the LHC ever fires up. That will be a great, great day.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Firstly, you don't buy into the fact that the earth was created in seven days, but science tells you the entire universe was created in an instant. (Big Bang)

OK, so now i have that out of the way, I can go into some information.


Let's start with the very beginning.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

No date, time stamp or otherwise designation as to when this occurred. (I don't see anything about 4,000 years there in English, Hebrew, Greek, or even in the Coptic translations.)

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Accurate translation from the Hebrew text;

And the earth became a waste and desolation...

God does not make desolation, nor wastes, so, that would mean something occurred to cause this here. Meaning, who knows what could have happened in this time, eg.; Atlantis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis, Mu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28lost_continent%29, Dinosaurs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur, Neanderthal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal, etc.

Also, many ancient cultures; Mayans, Native-Americans, etc believe that our earth is on it's last legs of the "Fifth Cycle", and 2012 is assumed to be the beginning of the sixth. Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Humans were God's "ONLY" creation, so there is a lot of room to accept potential other facts in theory by deduction (science again...)

Information, further reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

and,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-Age_creationism

So, now we have two theories, (Theory is accepted methodology of "Science") that postulate that the earth was not made in seven 24 hour days, and that a day in this biblical context is not counted as a 24 hour period.

That would allow acceptance for the science that says the earth is 4.54 billion years old, while allowing the bible to hold true.

So, there is a scientific explanation that refutes this silly 4k year old earth bullshit.



Next topic. Your issue with ladders. You know how the Germans used the Enigma machine in WWII to send "codes" to others that were selected to understand their meaning. People whom the Germans deemed not "worthy" to understand the messages were unable to decode these messages.

The bible, (noted in many places... Search "Parable + Bible" on Google) is written in the same fashion, it's divine message coded to those "with ears to hear" and "eyes to see". Shown here;

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

So, we can postulate (another science term used in explanation of the Bible) that there are just gonna be people out there that are not supposed to understand the meaning, My heart goes out to them, but they are just not made to "get" it. It's rather unfortunate, but it's the way it is. The fortunate thing is that they will get a second chance as stated in the bible.

[Schnitzer318is]

Whether or not you believe Jesus or God are real is a completely personal thing, but going out of your way to hate religion is ignorant in my opinion. No reason the majority of good people in churches can't get along with the rest of us, and us with them.

Agreed. That was the basis of my post a 3 pages ago. I was raised Catholic and (fortunately) went to a Catholic school that taught about other religions. Great school, really prepared me for future learning.

Anyway, though I am atheist/agnostic... I can see where people need to believe in an afterlife. And need an answer to "why am I here?"

There's no reason to be a "productive" member of society. What's the point? When you commit yourself to this ideal and have unbound faith in it, you see when people tell you to better yourself, get a job, be nice, etc, etc... is ironic. Because in that logical reasoning the people that go to work, do the whole "productive society" bit, are just wasting their time. If I have nothing to worry about, die, rot and just end, why do I waste my time doing ANYTHING that I just flat out don't want to? To do anything I don't want to is stupid and short sighted from that theological/idealistic perch. Food for thought.

I could not disagree with this more though. You can choose to be a productive member of society without believing in an afterlife. I do.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Funny fact; Agnostic translates to "against knowledge".