California Propositions 16 and 17.

[Lunner]

He probably is, considering the fact he's a liberal. Too young to know the real evils of big government...

You're right, no die hard liberal (whatever that word means) has ever lived past 25. The life cycle is child -> liberal youth -> aging hippie. Which is why Democrats (and the occasional Green in CA) are able to hold office, because voting is so popular with our nation's youth.

[fiftytakedowns]

He probably is, considering the fact he's a liberal. Too young to know the real evils of big government...

Age doesnt have anything to do with Evils of Big government. as the stigma goes, age comes with experience is not necessarily true, there as some stupid as fuck people that only follow their ideals because it was how their parents were, and never really thought for themselves, and yet they will blindly defend every point to the death.

but myself, a middle man, with no politcal prefence, laugh at the fact that people argue, and have political debates that really end up no-where. Never seen a politcal thread where people of either party went: hey thats right, this is a direction we need to go: no democratic, no republican bullshit, just the straight facts.

Just 2 years ago everyone was talking about how much they hated bush, now its all about obama. SOmeone will always be bickering and not doing shit. In my opinion Politcal forums are useless and should be deleted.

all it is, is a certain threads aimed agains a certain group, and everyone of the same affiliation blabbering at the gov't fail.

Politcal progress doesnt mean shit anymore.

BESIDES, If you valued your opinion truly you'd want a stronger voice anyway, not some ghay ass lobbyists speaking about bullshit that nobody ever wanted in the first place. I really wished protests meant anything these days.

Fuck government.

[Lunner]

but myself, a middle man, with no politcal prefence, laugh at the fact that people argue, and have political debates that really end up no-where. Never seen a politcal thread where people of either party went: hey thats right, this is a direction we need to go: no democratic, no republican bullshit, just the straight facts.

This.

...is kind of what I had in mind, by not trying to come off the bat as is if this were a partisan (tired of this word yet?, I am) issue, but rather an issue of simple facts, with real legislation and clear wording and implications. I'd also like to add that while you (as I) strive for 'no political preference', having an opinion on anything is grounds for most folks to pidgeonhole one as being a slave to some ideology or another. With that in mind I'll throw around the 'Liberal' moniker carelessly, as it seems to be the key requirement for this kind of discourse.

I'd like to think all seriously fought for political ideas have validity, and it's in compromise that true progress is made. I for one concede or consider points across the political spectrum in my own life all the time.
I think compromise in our system is best defined as the Democratic process as a whole, and the ability of the constituents to enact change. I might disagree with the passing of proposition 8, but my answer isn't to suggest that an oppressive system has punished a minority and therefore must be dismantled (or be attacked as broken with no real alternative in mind), but rather to acknowledge that the voting populace of California chose not to accept Gay Marriage at that time, and I have to accept that.

I'd further encourage activism on the part of people who disagree to repeal the proposition and gather support for their cause. And from a more practical stand point I'd encourage most to wait (even if I think it is unfair) until more of these baby boomers drop off, as largely it's these older mentalities and prejudices that passed that proposition. Gay marriage will be legal in this state, it'll just take time and effort. Most things take time and effort.

This process is hopefully something most can agree is ideal, and worth defending above all other political squabbling. And again this is where I take the most offense with these issues. Requiring a supermajority is not Democracy, it's rule by a minority.

BESIDES, If you valued your opinion truly you'd want a stronger voice anyway, not some ghay ass lobbyists speaking about bullshit that nobody ever wanted in the first place. I really wished protests meant anything these days.

Fuck government.

This. But, it's never enough for me to say 'fuck it' and walk away, I want to believe something can be done, and if paying attention and voting (and encouraing others to do the same) is the smallest step in the right direction then I'll cling to that. If more than that is required, I'll sign up for it too.

And I'm not yet old enough to withdraw into some crotchety jaded position and quit like some either, and I hope I never will be. And this goes for wanting a stronger voice and believing in the validity of my opinions as well. I might be 'liberal', a 'democrat', or etc., but I take that as a responsibility to be even more critical of my elected officials (who I vote for or am otherwise affiliated with) than their opponents do, and I let them know how I feel when possible. As long as I have an opinion I'll take action, in some form, to back it up.

[fiftytakedowns]

I agree with what you are saying, and I glad you concur with my statements as well.. I just feel like as though I voted for certain officials to represent me they do the opposite, and not really represent the people, but more or less their bank account.

Im not saying fuck it and walking away. Im simply stating That fuck government means there needs to be change to the system entirely. not the or any political party. and the shit is that it will never change because people think with their wallets, not their supporters/ voters

[e30e]

I don't like California......I felt like trolling.

[Ral]

Lunnar, I hope you enjoyed private school. As a public school graduate, I know there's no way you learned that kind of reading comprehension in public school.

[joshh]

You might. I don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...ition_13_(1978)

Edit: Although, before I get too ahead of myself, while I'm all in favor of our social services, they could certainly do with more oversight and restructuring. It's not a perfect system, and it should be continually look towards for improvement, but (when properly funded and regulated) it addresses serious needs that a state as wealthy and prosperous as ours should rightly be able to address.

I guess you haven't figured out yet that it's social services that's the cause of your "great" state of California going broke...and "more oversight and restructuring'...yeah because Government (specially California's) is just great at that eh. Oh wait Socialism works great it's just that no government on this planet has ever been able to make it work correctly yet right?
You're so wet behind the ears and spewing the same ol liberal nonsense, I can't take you seriously.

[joshh]

Lunnar, I hope you enjoyed private school. As a public school graduate, I know there's no way you learned that kind of reading comprehension in public school.

Specially So Cal public schools.

[z31maniac]

Lawl, alright, you win the post count.

And there's certainly something to be said for life experience, but now I gotta ask, how close are you to this magic age? And when you turned 25, please explain to me how everything all of a sudden 'clicked', the veil disappeared, and light shone through. I'm eager to hear your take on this mystifying experience.

As for me, I'm old enough to write these ideas out, and I'm not gonna play the age game or be goaded out by lowball numbers.

And if you want to discount what I have to say arbitrarily that's your business, but if you wanna talk about why I might be wrong by all means go for it. And again, I'm not interested in a forum debate on Left V Right, I'm curious to see what people (Californians in particular, as they'll ultimately decide) think about these two pieces of impending legislation.

So you're 21 still in college, got it.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Thanks z31, it's always nice to just cut through the bullshit.

[ck_taft325is]

Age doesnt have anything to do with Evils of Big government. as the stigma goes, age comes with experience is not necessarily true, there as some stupid as fuck people that only follow their ideals because it was how their parents were, and never really thought for themselves, and yet they will blindly defend every point to the death.

but myself, a middle man, with no politcal prefence, laugh at the fact that people argue, and have political debates that really end up no-where. Never seen a politcal thread where people of either party went: hey thats right, this is a direction we need to go: no democratic, no republican bullshit, just the straight facts.

Just 2 years ago everyone was talking about how much they hated bush, now its all about obama. SOmeone will always be bickering and not doing shit. In my opinion Politcal forums are useless and should be deleted.

all it is, is a certain threads aimed agains a certain group, and everyone of the same affiliation blabbering at the gov't fail.

Politcal progress doesnt mean shit anymore.

BESIDES, If you valued your opinion truly you'd want a stronger voice anyway, not some ghay ass lobbyists speaking about bullshit that nobody ever wanted in the first place. I really wished protests meant anything these days.

Fuck government.

I have on a number of issues changed my perspective based on what another person has said. It's the close minded, narrow perspective that sits and criticizes yet really has nothing to contribute or say in actuality yet still "feels" (goes against your cold hard facts, 'eh?) like they should throw their anti-opinion opinion into the mix.

Lunner, I want to ask you something. What or why exactly do you have no respect for people that have invested in property renting to people and collecting mortgage + profit in return? I'm not sure why this is an evil that deserves "no respect" from you.

[Lunner]

Lunner, I want to ask you something. What or why exactly do you have no respect for people that have invested in property renting to people and collecting mortgage + profit in return? I'm not sure why this is an evil that deserves "no respect" from you.

It was a personal aside, and this thread has already turned into a soapbox for my ideas, which was my fault and I apologize. I won't be so goaded in the future.

But, to answer a question, I just happen to value labor above probably all else, and I think the devaluation of actual labor is a critical concern in this ever increasingly post-capital world. It's not an uncommon idea, it just gets too politicized/divided over silly shit. A culture of instant gratification, consumer/service industries supporting our economy, outsourcing work to other countries, these are all familiar tropes of a common theme of work seen as something 'dirty', undesirable, etc. If there's any difference in my point of view however, it's that I think it's clear that this problem is cultural, class-less, and supported by our economic trends and mindsets. We've created a system that supports the idea that the best one can do is to get the most rewards for the least amount of effort. Labor is treated as an inconvenient step between the self and gratification, and something to be circumvented whenever possible.

As such I wouldn't call myself upset at, or vilify, an individual who say worked hard at a career well until their 50's, bought a few properties with their earnings, and used the returns from rent as a safe and comfortable form of retirement, or to offset their savings, or so on and so forth. In my mind they've earned that right. They obtained a skill, contributed to society, and used the fruits of their labor to enjoy a comfortable life style. It's all contextual.

Similarly, those who are born into money, inherit properties, or say 'hit it rich' with some hot investing tips/ideas, and literally live a life of collecting checks and 'managing' properties, which for the most part is just outsourced to various laborers, cpas and lawyers as needed, yes, I do not respect them. At all. However, I would not, and did not, call them 'evil' either. I just think that people who don't work for money aren't really individuals deserving of my respect.

In a further attempt to reach across the aisle (and likely to be batted down by Joshh's trolling), I'll add that I consider individuals who collect welfare/unemployment/etc. who do not work or look for work (because again, context is key) on the same level as these 'check collectors'. As such I'd say I look towards the Clinton era welfare reform (requiring recepients to work or volunteer in their community, 5 year limits, etc.) as a great example of bi-partisan cooperation towards a logical conclusion (yes, I'm aware it has its flaws still).

And further on a more personal note, it's frustrating to observe how individuals (especially in this state) can work their asses off in varying jobs or careers just enough to pay 'rent', but never enough to bridge that well defined line of paying 'mortgage payments'. Obviously that complicates my point further and in a tangential direction, but the point is, individuals who are rich, or even just moderately well off, just for the sake of being so, i.e. because they own/were given land, are out of touch with reality. It bears repeating, but if you do not work (labor) for money, you haven't earned it, and I (and the 'I' is important, because you asked me the direct question) have zero respect for you. I have similar feelings for marketing executives, anyone associated (at the higher levels of course) with banks who received bail out funds (especially Goldman Sachs), lawyers and so on. But even those people rank higher in my mind, because at least their manipulating required some ingenuity (however lacking morals) and effort, unlike these people who wait for their check in the mail. This can be extrapolated to shareholders as well though, or say the Walton family.

Now, before this is taken to some illogical conclusion, like I support radical revolution and the redistribution of wealth by force or some other scary communist idea, I'd like to add that my lack of respect for these people is exactly that. A lack of respect, not a vendetta. I think the current system of taxation and regulation is more than enough of a frame work to keep things as fair as they need be, so long as we as citizens remain vigilant and active in the process (obviously an issue) of bettering our government and our communities.

And while I'm still making this about me, I didn't go to private school. I'm effectively a high school drop out (at least in the other 49 states, in CA I'm a CHSPE recepient), but either way I stopped attending compulsory education at age 15 and went almost immediately (ok, I took about two months to bum about, which was indeed a luxury) into the working world and community college. I rode busses two hours a day and made burritos and tacos 30 hours a week. I owe any percieved literacy or argumentative prowess (which, since that was the implication Ral, thanks, it means a lot) to a combination of a lot of fortuitous factors, particularly a unique home life and state schools. I still think I've had a pretty easy life (in context, a white male with a father can do a lot), but I am in no way associated with the class of society that can afford to send children to private schools. I have however, worked for and underneath them quite a bit. Thanks again though, and I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from. Either way I should stop now, my extensive writing thus far is nothing short of egoism, or exhibitionism at best. But if you've read all this I want to thank you for validating my thoughts so.

Anyone care about these propositions? Anyone?

[e30e]

So are you or are you not saying that people who do work with their brains should not be valued as much as someone who can swing a hammer?

[Lunner]

So are you or are you not saying that people who do work with their brains should not be valued as much as someone who can swing a hammer?

I don't know where you're getting that from, but no, I'm not suggesting that in the least. One can be just as productive and hard working with an intellectual career as they can with a skilled trade. Ownership of capital is neither intellectual nor laborous, it generates wealth for its own sake.

I for one would be useless as say a professional mechanic, which is why I built/work on my e30 as a hobby. Because I know I won't do as good of a job as a professional, but it's far more enjoyable and rewarding to tough it out and figure out how to do it right, even if it takes longer (and more often than not I have to back pedal to correct mistakes). My first car was pretty much new, and I never felt like I deserved it nearly as much as I do my e30.

[e30e]

I don't know where you're getting that from, but no, I'm not suggesting that in the least. One can be just as productive and hard working with an intellectual career as they can with a skilled trade. Ownership of capital is neither intellectual nor laborous, it generates wealth for its own sake.

I for one would be useless as say a professional mechanic, which is why I built/work on my e30 as a hobby. Because I know I won't do as good of a job as a professional, but it's far more enjoyable and rewarding to tough it out and figure out how to do it right, even if it takes longer (and more often than not I have to back pedal to correct mistakes). My first car was pretty much new, and I never felt like I deserved it nearly as much as I do my e30.

Thank you for clearing that up, you write on a higher level than I can comprehend to be honest.