More Fun from the EPA

[mrsleeve]

Fuck I hate the EPA,

http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/epa-reviewing-request-ban-led-bullets

Will Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lisa Jackson make a back door move to ban lead bullets the day before the November 2 elections?

Several environmentalist groups led by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) are petitioning the EPA to ban lead bullets and shot (as well as lead sinkers for fishing) under the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA). Although EPA is barred by statute from controlling ammunition, CBD is seeking to work farther back along the manufacturing chain and have EPA ban the use of lead in bullets and shot because non-lead alternatives are available. But here's the catch: the alternatives to lead bullets are more expensive. A ban on the sale of lead ammunition would force hunters and sport shooters to buy non-lead ammunition that is often double the cost of traditional lead ammunition. A box of deer hunting bullets in a popular caliber could be upwards of $55.

Although the EPA could have dismissed the request due to a lack of jurisdiction, it is obliging CBD. The EPA has asked for public comment on banning lead in ammunition, and an EPA notice was published seeking public comment that closes on October 31. Jackson would then make a decision to accept or reject the petition on November 1. You might say that even considering enacting what is effectively a new tax on hunters and gun owners--seemingly the only non-liberal group the Obama administration hasn't yet intentionally provoked--is less-than-perfect timing for the already beleagured Democrats as the midterm elections approach.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), a trade association for the firearm and ammunition industry, has hit back against the petition sending Jackson a letter documenting why EPA has no jurisdiction and outlining the damage that banning lead ammunition would do to U.S. industry and jobs, conservation, and law enforcement. The NSSF estimates that more than 90 percent of hunters and sport shooters use traditional lead ammunition. If all hunters were forced to buy non-lead bullets that are made out of metals like tungsten, bismuth, and copper alloys, demand could easily begin to outstrip the supply and prices would go even higher.

Bill Clinton famously blamed the NRA and gun owners for sweeping Democrats from control of the House in 1994 after he pushed them to pass the Assault Weapons Ban. For Democrats, especially those in rural and conservative districts that are already facing voters’ wrath, gun control could once again be an issue that helps defeat them and swings control of the House and perhaps even the Senate to the GOP.

Do I really need to go into more detail why I hate the EPA, and what not???

Discuss

[KenC]

Is there data that displays a significant negative impact on the water sheds originating in areas of heavy hunting?

Lead is poisonous. There is no debate about that. However, if the effect on the water supply is negligible, then it doesn't make much sense. But if there is documentation a a sizable negative impact on the water supply, AND there are non-lead alternatives available (albeit more expensive), then I don't see an issue. It's not like the non-lead ones are $20 each round.


The ban on lead wheel weights went through in CA last year, right?

[mrsleeve]

Is there data that displays a significant negative impact on the water sheds originating in areas of heavy hunting?

CA did this ban of lead in hunting ammo where the condors live to save them. Well where the condors live there is a FUCK load of natural occuring lead so the answer to your question is NO.

Lead is poisonous. There is no debate about that. However, if the effect on the water supply is negligible, then it doesn't make much sense. But if there is documentation a a sizable negative impact on the water supply, AND there are non-lead alternatives available (albeit more expensive), then I don't see an issue. It's not like the non-lead ones are $20 each round.

In places where there has been a heavly used shooting range for decades yes the level of lead contamination, is higher, but it the water that runs off or pumped from below is not considered toxic. 99% of the time. These are isolated areas and the "contamination" from them is far less than what is in the water sheds from naturally occurring sources of lead.

Yes you can have conventional ammo (read lead) that every time you pull the trigger you have launched a 5-10 dollar bill down range. This idea would push the more common calibers that are 30cents to a buck a pop up into this range and those that are already there into the 20+ bucks a pop.

My 7mm mag a box of 20 premium hunting/match rounds is just over 50 bucks as it is now, and its not that big a rifle to use lots of material to make up the projectile.

The ban on lead wheel weights went through in CA last year, right?

and why, its more feel good bull shit that will have NO, ZIP, ZERO , ZILCH EFFECT on saving the environment. Yes lead will dissolve in water, BUT its not easily dissolved (you know its in batteries right???surrounded by Acid right and it still there) when its wrapped in a cooper jacket and buried into the ground, 100grains here a 100 there vastly spread out, and with no water rushing over it 24/7 is even less likely to cause issues. Lead was banned in Shot shells for water foul hunting because that lead lands in the water shed and the fear could dissolve more readily due to its total immersion in water, still metallic lead wont do that but what are we gonna do about it now. When foul hunting you are not shooting past 50 yards anyway so the swap to SS BB's is very noticeable but not as critical as when trying to take elk or deer from 300+ yards out.

[BraveUlysses]

CA did this ban of lead in hunting ammo where the condors live to save them. Well where the condors live there is a FUCK load of natural occuring lead so the answer to your question is NO.

So your contention is that the Condors were almost put into extinction by ingesting "naturally occurring lead"? Does lead naturally occur in dead animal carcasses?

[CorvallisBMW]

CA did this ban of lead in hunting ammo where the condors live to save them. Well where the condors live there is a FUCK load of natural occuring lead so the answer to your question is NO.

any sources to back this up?

In places where there has been a heavly used shooting range for decades yes the level of lead contamination, is higher, but it the water that runs off or pumped from below is not considered toxic. 99% of the time. These are isolated areas and the "contamination" from them is far less than what is in the water sheds from naturally occurring sources of lead.

Yes you can have conventional ammo (read lead) that every time you pull the trigger you have launched a 5-10 dollar bill down range. This idea would push the more common calibers that are 30cents to a buck a pop up into this range and those that are already there into the 20+ bucks a pop.

My 7mm mag a box of 20 premium hunting/match rounds is just over 50 bucks as it is now, and its not that big a rifle to use lots of material to make up the projectile.

It doesn't take much lead to cause lead poisoning, very little in fact. When you consider things like fishing weights, yes there is water rushing over them 100% of the time. The lead from ammo is bare, uncovered and unshielded. It's also quite soft, meaning it is more easily separated in to small amounts and/or turned to lead dust. I've bought lead-free ammo before for indoor ranges and it was about 25% more than leaded ammo. That's not exactly going to break the bank for anyone.

and why, its more feel good bull shit that will have NO, ZIP, ZERO , ZILCH EFFECT on saving the environment. Yes lead will dissolve in water, BUT its not easily dissolved (you know its in batteries right???surrounded by Acid right and it still there) when its wrapped in a cooper jacket and buried into the ground, 100grains here a 100 there vastly spread out, and with no water rushing over it 24/7 is even less likely to cause issues. Lead was banned in Shot shells for water foul hunting because that lead lands in the water shed and the fear could dissolve more readily due to its total immersion in water, still metallic lead wont do that but what are we gonna do about it now. When foul hunting you are not shooting past 50 yards anyway so the swap to SS BB's is very noticeable but not as critical as when trying to take elk or deer from 300+ yards out.

It will have a huge effect actually. I can't find the article right now, but before the ban on lead wheel weights in CA they estimated that lost weights were contributing to over 500,000 TONS of lead contamination in the environment every year. And those wheels weights would get driven over by millions of cars, turning them in to dust that enters the environment (air, water, soil) instantly, no break-down period.

And despite all the people who freaked out, cried wolf and said that the cost of buying tires would double, the plain fact is that prices haven't budged even $0.01. Zinc wheel weights are the same price as lead. BMW even mandated that all dealerships around the world use them many years ago. All of Europe has banned leaded weights.

I'm with Ken on this one. You have a known poisonous, toxic carcinogen that kills thousands every year, that causes a whole host of developmental disabilities and kills wildlife. Why NOT ban it? What if lead were linked to the explosion in autism rates among children, would you still advocate for it? Is an extra $5-$10 for 100 rounds of ammo going to cause you to starve?

It's all about trade-offs. I'd rather pay a few extra bucks for my hobby and ensure my children don't get lead poisoning.

[E30Idea]

I dread the day Eugene gets with it and changes things.

[mrsleeve]

Metallic lead is does not dissolve well in water or any thing for that matter is nearly as stable as gold. As for the condor its been going the way of Dodo for long before the we humans have been helping them along.

American Board of Medical Toxicology
American Board of Toxicology


TWELVE OAKS MEDICAL TOWER
4126 SOUTHWEST FREEWAY, SUITE 1616
HOUSTON, TEXAS 71027

Jan. 26, 1994

To whom it may concern:
As one of two board-certified medical toxicologists in Houston, I have interested myself in the recent proceedings against Robert G. Arwady. These involve alleged lead pollution secondary to metallic lead from bullets at the Southwest Tactical Training Range in Fort Bend County.
In my opinion, these proceedings are a gross Misapplication of both the environmental pollution laws and of the science of toxicology.
In addition to my prior work in heavy metal poisoning, I have reviewed the data collected from the site and the scientific literature on environmental lead poisoning and have come to the following conclusions:
First, metallic lead (e.g., in the form of lead Bullets, shot, etc) is not a significant source of environmental lead contamination. This is for several reasons. Among these are the relative inertness of lead in metallic form. Thus, for example, lead containers are used in sulfuric acid manufacture because of the relative insolubility and inertness of lead even to strong acids. This is combined with the relative insolubility and Immobility of lead salts in the soil environment. Thus, lead levels in water leaving the site were only 20 ppb.
Lead contamination and/or lead poisoning can come from a Variety of sources. These include such well known sources as the use of lead salts in ceramic glazes and paint chip ingestion by children. Such exposure involves actual oral consumption of non-metallic lead.
As for metallic: there have been a few cases of probable mild chronic lead poisoning secondary to retained Bullets following gun-shot wounds. These are rare enough to be “reportable”. They illustrate the relative non-toxicity of metallic lead even under the extreme conditions.
In my literature search of over 5,000 papers, I could find no reference to outdoor shooting ranges as significant sources of environmental lead. However, there are debatable questions about chronic inhalation of particulate lead in poorly ventilated indoor shooting ranges. Perhaps someone got things confused.
Thus, I must conclude that the proceedings brought against Mr. Arwady and his shooting range lack any scientific basis. I am willing to testify to such if necessary.
Please call me if you have questions or comments. (signed)
Peter H. Proctor PhD, MD

[b*saint]

The EPA and FCC both need to goto hell.

[Wiglaf]

I would argue that other heavy metals such as copper, while not directly poisonous, could do MORE harm when randomly left about from fishing/shooting.

[Farbin Kaiber]

When is the EPA gonna start putting a ban on things on the Periodic Table of Elements?

Oh, now.

Taxing things out of existence is gonna do one thing, continue the erosion of the middle class, and place every-FUCKING-one in our society in one of two groups, The Have's, and The Have-Not's.

[mrsleeve]

And the EPA comes out this after noon and says they will not take up the petition

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/27/epa-rejects-calls-ban-lead-ammo-fishing-tackle/?test=latestnews

The Environmental Protection Agency has denied a petition filed by environmental activists seeking to ban lead in ammunition and fishing tackle, saying such regulation is beyond the agency's authority.

The agency's decision, announced Friday shortly after FoxNews.com published its report on the issue, sided with hunters and fishermen who had argued that the such regulations weren't allowed under the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead," the agency said in a written statement. "However, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife."

A coalition of conservation groups had filed its petition earlier this month arguing that the use of lead in ammo and tackle is poisoning the nation's lakes, ponds and forests and asking the EPA to ban the "manufacture, processing and distribution" of lead shot, bullets and fishing.

According to the petitioners, who include the Center for Biological Diversity and the American Bird Conservancy, up to 20 million birds and other animals are killed each year due to lead poisoning in the United States, and at least 75 wild bird species -- including bald eagles, ravens and endangered California condors -- are poisoned by spent lead ammunition. They say roughly 3,000 tons of lead are expelled into U.S. hunting grounds annually, with another 80,000 tons released at shooting ranges, and another 4,000 tons of lead fishing lures and sinkers are lost in ponds and streams.

But sportsmen don't want anyone tinkering with the tools of their trade.

The Toxic Substances Control Act allows the EPA to regulate "chemical substances" under certain circumstances, but Congress explicitly excluded from regulation any article subject to excise taxes -- including pistols, revolvers, firearms, shells and cartridges.

Chris Cox, executive director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, objected to the pettion, saying the conservationists were trying to circumvent this rule by suggesting that while ammunition itself is exempt from regulation, the chemical components of the ammo and fishing lures -- specifically, the lead -- can fall under the EPA's jurisdiction.

But environmental activists like Michael Fry of the American Bird Conservancy told FoxNews.com that the petitioners waited to submit their request until nontoxic alternatives such as steel, copper and alloy became readily available.

"Ammunition itself cannot be regulated [under the Act], but the components itself can be regulated," Fry said in an interview before the EPA's decision was announced. "In other words, you cannot ban ammunition, but you can require nontoxic ammunition. ... We're not trying to ban handgun ammunition. This is strictly a toxicity issue, with lead poisoning wildlife."

So its a non issue after all. I find it odd for this admin and its appointees but hey this is a good thing.

[Farbin Kaiber]

They are picking their battles, this was simply a "toe-in-the-water" test to see what the social temperature was.

[Vedubin01]

They are picking their battles, this was simply a "toe-in-the-water" test to see what the social temperature was.

This

[mrsleeve]

They are picking their battles, this was simply a "toe-in-the-water" test to see what the social temperature was.

agreed

just like when they tried to end once fired military brass being available to the public for commercial reloaders to provide bulk ammo to the masses about 18 months ago. That lasted all of a week end

[Farbin Kaiber]

I don't think they are gonna do anything related to anything tied to the 2nd unless they up the fluoride content in the public supply, and cart off all the conservatives to "Protective Colonies" outside of voting borders. And then, it would be in the Messiah's second term.