EPA at it again (milk this time)

[mrsleeve]

got some time to catch up on the paper today

President Obama says he wants to purge regulations that are "just plain dumb," like his humorous State of the Union bit about salmon. So perhaps he should review a new rule that is supposed to prevent oil spills akin to the Gulf Coast disaster—at the nation's dairy farms.

Two weeks ago, the Environmental Protection Agency finalized a rule that subjects dairy producers to the Spill Prevention, Control and Countermeasure program, which was created in 1970 to prevent oil discharges in navigable waters or near shorelines. Naturally, it usually applies to oil and natural gas outfits. But the EPA has discovered that milk contains "a percentage of animal fat, which is a non-petroleum oil," as the agency put it in the Federal Register.

In other words, the EPA thinks the next blowout may happen in rural Vermont or Wisconsin. Other dangerous pollution risks that somehow haven't made it onto the EPA docket include leaks from maple sugar taps and the vapors at Badger State breweries.

The EPA rule requires farms—as well as places that make cheese, butter, yogurt, ice cream and the like—to prepare and implement an emergency management plan in the event of a milk catastrophe. Among dozens of requirements, farmers must train first responders in cleanup protocol and build "containment facilities" such as dikes or berms to mitigate offshore dairy slicks.

These plans must be in place by November, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture is even running a $3 million program "to help farmers and ranchers comply with on-farm oil spill regulations." You cannot make this stuff up.

The final rule is actually more lenient than the one the EPA originally proposed. The agency tried to claim jurisdiction over the design specifications of "milk containers and associated piping and appurtenances," until the industry pointed out that such equipment was already overseen by the Food and Drug Administration, the USDA and state inspectors. The EPA conceded, "While these measures are not specifically intended for oil spill prevention, we believe they may prevent discharges of oil in quantities that are harmful."

We appreciate Mr. Obama's call for more regulatory reason, but it would be more credible if one of his key agencies wasn't literally crying over unspilled milk

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704698004576104040647573056.html

Really you guys dont think the EPA is not getting outta hand and being used as weapon and control device ??????

[mar1t1me]

Except that the guy that wrote the article left this part out:

The EPA appears to have listened to these complaints and others made about its pending Spill Prevention, Control, and Countermeasure (SPCC) rule, according to Jackie Klippenstein, vice president of legislative and industry affairs for Dairy Farmers of America.

“Staff at the EPA have indicated that they will soon be finalizing the proposed SPCC rule to exempt milk storage containers,” she said in a Dec. 29 e-mail. “This was the goal of many legislative efforts last year.”

So, (I can't resist)......no need to cry over spilled milk!

BTW, doesn't anybody do any research anymore? It took me all of about 5 minutes to find this.

The article is "Milk Storage Tanks to be Exempt from Oil Spill Prevention Rule". It's 6 months old......you'd think someone who gets published on WSJ would maybe bother to see if his article was even still relevant......

[joshh]

Except that the guy that wrote the article left this part out:

The EPA appears to have listened to these complaints and others made about its pending Spill Prevention, Control, and Countermeasure (SPCC) rule, according to Jackie Klippenstein, vice president of legislative and industry affairs for Dairy Farmers of America.

“Staff at the EPA have indicated that they will soon be finalizing the proposed SPCC rule to exempt milk storage containers,” she said in a Dec. 29 e-mail. “This was the goal of many legislative efforts last year.”

So, (I can't resist)......no need to cry over spilled milk!

BTW, doesn't anybody do any research anymore? It took me all of about 5 minutes to find this.

The article is "Milk Storage Tanks to be Exempt from Oil Spill Prevention Rule". It's 6 months old......you'd think someone who gets published on WSJ would maybe bother to see if his article was even still relevant......

Once again you miss the point. Why are they even worried about milk and having to come to a "conclusion" when it's painfully obvious the EPA doesn't need to put attention there. More wasted tax dollars.

[mar1t1me]

http://www.epa.gov/ceppo/web/docs/oil/spcc/spccfarms.pdf

It's only two pages, so inform yourself. The quoted article is full of misinformation. Milk was exempted months ago. Wonder how it got on list do you? Ever work in a bureaucracy? The SPCC rules include certain amounts of stored animal fats. Some lowly analyst likely connected milk and animal fat (yes people are that stupid) and next thing you know it's being drafted into a new rule to try and impress a boss, or more likely to justify a continued paycheck.....

Either way, it's piss poor journalism to not point out that the issue at hand is now moot.

The bottom line is that the EPA did the right thing for a change. Let's hope it's a trend.

[mrsleeve]

Talk about missing the trees due to the forest

Maritime- You are so hung up disproving anything and defending govt. The biggest point remains not that the EPA used some sense (big farm lobby I am sure had something to do with it). The point is why was this even on the list, and why would the EPA (aka Govt) want to have that kinda regulatory control, over what they have now???


The writing is on the wall, you dont see it do you

[5Toes]

Here we go... this country is getting worse and worse

[Massive Lee]

Maritime- You are so hung up disproving anything and defending govt.

Look who's talking. mrsleeve and Joshh must be in the same bed buttfucking and cocksucking each other as they have the same continuous agenda. Why don't you both commit a suicide pact and we don't hear from your continuous baby crying about government this, government that?

You're getting extremely annoying.

[mrsleeve]

Look who's talking. mrsleeve and Joshh must be in the same bed buttfucking and cocksucking each other as they have the same continuous agenda. Why don't you both commit a suicide pact and we don't hear from your continuous baby crying about government this, government that?

You're getting extremely annoying.

Well for one thing this does not concern you, the EPA and its proclamations and agenda have no real impact on americas hat. (other than maybe some reduced oil exports).

Its our rights to speak out against govt when its up no good. Its one of the founding principals of this nation.

A government big enough to give give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson


Its the job of the people to keep the government in check and to always be vigilante of evils of government ( a necessary evil).

If you wish to keep living with you head in the sand, thats just fine, just shut the fuck up and stay outta my thread

[Massive Lee]

You are still annoying. Stop presenting uncomplete desinformation. If you want to discuss politics, at least find a constructive angle. You are only mimiccing the same republican attitude that has the US stall since the new administration. You clearly seem to forget that Obi is the moral leader of the US, and therefore you have to follow. Or vote. Or just go into politics and do something. Not just continuously complain.

This current attitude is having me reconsider supporting R3V as a few bullies are making the forum so depressing and I am so close to pull the plug. At least on e30tech or s14.net you don't have all that bullshit and babycrying attitude.

[mar1t1me]

You are so hung up disproving anything and defending govt.

Not defending government! Geez! Talk about missing the forest.

The article YOU posted made it sound like it was a done deal. It's not.

Rather defending accuracy. Your link was inaccurate. If you're going to post something, at least maybe check more than one source....

And what solution do you propose for regulation? Is your solution to let companies self-regulate like in China these days?

From Reuters:

A new Chinese government survey of the country’s environmental problems has shown water pollution levels in 2007 were more than twice the government’s official estimate, largely because agricultural waste was ignored.The data, presented by Vice Environment Protection Minister Zhang Lijun, revives persistent questions about the quality of Chinese official statistics and the effectiveness of a government push for cleaner growth after decades of unbridled expansion.

And that's only agricultural waste. Maybe you'd enjoy importing some of this over here.

[mrsleeve]

You are still annoying. Stop presenting uncomplete desinformation. If you want to discuss politics, at least find a constructive angle. You are only mimiccing the same republican attitude that has the US stall since the new administration. You clearly seem to forget that Obi is the moral leader of the US, and therefore you have to follow. Or vote. Or just go into politics and do something. Not just continuously complain.

my link was not inaccurate the next last paragraph tells you that its not being implemented, as the EPA wanted but they are still going to spend the money on it. How much more constructive do you want it.. The article leaves you with enough info to know what is going on and lets you draw your own conclusions, rather than spoon feed what to think al la the NYT.

the 0 may be the president but that does not mean I have to follow him, or go buy the shit hes selling. I vote all but 1 since my 18th birthday.

I am not Just complaining, I am doing something by letting others know what is going on when I find something that is discussion worthy.

Stand still??? No more like slow the fuck down and keep with in the frame work set out for our govt. you are a socialist, thats your problem not mine, I prefer to stick with the principals and things that work and what got this country to where it is, not slop the progressives BOTH R AND D are slinging

This current attitude is having me reconsider supporting R3V as a few bullies are making the forum so depressing and I am so close to pull the plug. At least on e30tech or s14.net you don't have all that bullshit and babycrying attitude.

Excuses me, this is a sub form, just for all this bullshit, to contain it and keep it in one place. Which it has done rather well, you dont have to come in here. this site is mostly Americans and many of us take and interest in such topics and like to debate and discuss them, some times more vigorously than others. While your opinion is just as welcome as anyone else's , you stir the pot just as much as Josh does, you just dont agree with him so that pisses you off and you now want to take your ball and go home.

Babaycrying is as far from it as it could be. Its speaking out against something you dont agree with and flies in the face of our principals. I didnt see anything but pissing and moaning and bitching what not from your viewpoint when the R's were in power and the dems were trying stop everything from going forward. So where does that leave us, now that there is more shit going on that you agree with its babycraying and when you dont its protest???? grow up.


Maritime: the article I posted clearly states that its not a done deal and that will not go forward as originally planed by the EPA. So either you did not read the whole thing, comprehension is troublesome for you, or you were in just such a hurry to prove me wrong that you missed that part.

Carefully considered and prudent legislation and regulation, NOTHING the EPA has done in the last 10 years fits these guidelines and many of which are based on rigged studies and fit an overall agenda of power and control over the citizenry

[mar1t1me]

my link was not inaccurate the next last paragraph tells you that its not being implemented, as the EPA wanted but they are still going to spend the money on it. How much more constructive do you want it.. The article leaves you with enough info to know what is going on and lets you draw your own conclusions, rather than spoon feed what to think al la the NYT.

Draw your own conclusion? Ludicrous! The conclusion isn't up for grabs! The problem was solved to the satisfaction of those involved. But the article doesn't say that! And the article words things in such a way as to lead an unwary reader into believing that not only does the EPA want to regulate MILK, but that the AG Dept was spending $3M to help farmers deal the MILK regulations. "You cannot make this stuff up" it says. Except it did. The first two paragraphs are blatantly misleading! And this is utter hyperbole:

The EPA rule requires farms—as well as places that make cheese, butter, yogurt, ice cream and the like—to prepare and implement an emergency management plan in the event of a milk catastrophe. Among dozens of requirements, farmers must train first responders in cleanup protocol and build "containment facilities" such as dikes or berms to mitigate offshore dairy slicks.

As if they might be required to do this just because of MILK. It's a lie. They have to do all that stuff ANYWAY if they have- wait-did you even look at the PDF? Did you see the 3 conditions a farm has to achieve before the rule even applies? Of course the article didn't mention those-it was too busy trying to piss people off.

The second to last paragraph, which you seem to think I didn't read, is gobbledygook! We've just been told, at length, about how the evil EPA IS going to regulate milk spills. "Two weeks ago regulations were finalized", and now the regulation is "more lenient". More lenient than WHAT? The MILK regulation is GONE!

I am not Just complaining, I am doing something by letting others know what is going on when I find something that is discussion worthy.

Discussions need alternative viewpoints, yes? Or where you looking for agreement, rather than discussion?

I prefer to stick with the principals and things that work and what got this country to where it is

Please elucidate and illuminate these principles and things.

Babaycrying is as far from it as it could be. Its speaking out against something you dont agree with and flies in the face of our principals.

And you have contacted your representatives and let them know how you feel? If you aren't willing to lift a finger to actually do something to solve the problem, then it is just whining. It takes about as much time as posting a link here. Easy peasy.

I have to deal with lots of regulators. They have a job to do and I'm glad they are there for the most part. I believe that a lot of what you and others believe is some sinister political undertone in the EPA is really just the nature of trying to get things done in an imperfect bureaucracy while trying to hold onto a job in ever shifting political climates.

The EPA is far from perfect, and makes a lot of mistakes. In this case, they fixed one. Let's see the IRS do that! And since you didn't answer my question about its alternative, I must assume you don't have an alternative. Should for-profit corporations be allowed to self-regulate?

[mrsleeve]

Draw your own conclusion? Ludicrous! The conclusion isn't up for grabs! The problem was solved to the satisfaction of those involved. But the article doesn't say that! And the article words things in such a way as to lead an unwary reader into believing that not only does the EPA want to regulate MILK, but that the AG Dept was spending $3M to help farmers deal the MILK regulations. "You cannot make this stuff up" it says. Except it did. The first two paragraphs are blatantly misleading! And this is utter hyperbole:

The EPA rule requires farms—as well as places that make cheese, butter, yogurt, ice cream and the like—to prepare and implement an emergency management plan in the event of a milk catastrophe. Among dozens of requirements, farmers must train first responders in cleanup protocol and build "containment facilities" such as dikes or berms to mitigate offshore dairy slicks.

As if they might be required to do this just because of MILK. It's a lie. They have to do all that stuff ANYWAY if they have- wait-did you even look at the PDF? Did you see the 3 conditions a farm has to achieve before the rule even applies? Of course the article didn't mention those-it was too busy trying to piss people off.

The second to last paragraph, which you seem to think I didn't read, is gobbledygook! We've just been told, at length, about how the evil EPA IS going to regulate milk spills. "Two weeks ago regulations were finalized", and now the regulation is "more lenient". More lenient than WHAT? The MILK regulation is GONE!

Christ man, I dont see how it can be much clearer here, aritcle outlines the plan the EPA wanted says the plan that will go into effect must be in place by nov and that the Dept of Ag is gonna spend money foolishly. then goes on to say the rule that will go into effect will not be as stupid as the orginal one.

Why is the EPA trying to regulate things that the AG department and the FDA already regulate to beat hell (could it be to gain further control of the food supply)

Discussions need alternative viewpoints, yes? Or where you looking for agreement, rather than discussion?

Sure discussion, that didnt stop you from missing the point of why I posted it regardless of the EPA backing down to a certain degree.

Please elucidate and illuminate these principles and things.

life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, Free enterprise and capitalism, and equality under the law. All of which have been usurped in the name of protecting us from our selves and Necessity.

from my sig lines

The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
William Pitt- British Prime Minister 1759 - 1806

the EPA and IRS have been perverted into 2 of the main devices of control and fear, used to mange both the people and industry and limit all of those things I have listed above.

And you have contacted your representatives and let them know how you feel? If you aren't willing to lift a finger to actually do something to solve the problem, then it is just whining. It takes about as much time as posting a link here. Easy peasy.

Are you serious? Of course I have up untill about 2 months ago The all got weekly emails and sometimes phone calls. Most of the time I dont even get the form letter back anymore. The father of the HC is the senior senator from MT he didnt even read the fucking bill he authored, hes a tool so my concerns go unnoticed.

The only reason I have stopped is I am working 100 hour weeks and for the last 5 months

I have to deal with lots of regulators. They have a job to do and I'm glad they are there for the most part. I believe that a lot of what you and others believe is some sinister political undertone in the EPA is really just the nature of trying to get things done in an imperfect bureaucracy while trying to hold onto a job in ever shifting political climates.

yeah me too I have to deal with tons and tons federal and state regulations before I even can start up my truck and go to work. Let alone with all the BS I have to comply with just to do my job. Let alone all the other govt BS hoops of fire my employer has to go though, and all the regulations we have to comply with that have nothing to do with our line of work but pertain to our customers and just being on the job.

I have worked for Shell Oil and it takes and hour in the AM to fill out all the safety and enviro paper work for them (both company and govt mandated) thanks to the EPA, waffleswaffleswaffles(nergy) and god know how many other regulatory agencies on top of my 1/2 hour of paper work for the feds for my job.

that in lies the problem huh, they have to justify their job, well then if there is nothing for them to do fire them and save some tax payers money. This is getting into a topic for a different thread.

The EPA is far from perfect, and makes a lot of mistakes. In this case, they fixed one. Let's see the IRS do that! And since you didn't answer my question about its alternative, I must assume you don't have an alternative. Should for-profit corporations be allowed to self-regulate?

Yeah is a weapon now, and being used with impunity on all of us, it directly effects all of us both good and bad. Now its gone beyond is scope and being use for pushing agendas it was never intended to. Same as the IRS the only reason they "fixed" something is because the FDA and Dept of AG has it covered.


Yes and no, all depends on lots of things what industry ,what they do, use, hold, byproducts and many many other circumstances. In general yes, but put the fines and penalties up there to the point where a serious violation will be enough to break the company, or hurt them to the point to its an incentive to not do it at all. Would this work for all industries NO, but as a general rule yes.

While I agree with the original mandate and mission of the EPA (which did seem to work well) it has grown to well beyond that, and now we get shit like this to justify their existence.

[e30e]

This current attitude is having me reconsider supporting R3V as a few bullies are making the forum so depressing and I am so close to pull the plug. At least on e30tech or s14.net you don't have all that bullshit and babycrying attitude.

gtfo then

[87e30]

This current attitude is having me reconsider supporting R3V as a few bullies are making the forum so depressing and I am so close to pull the plug. At least on e30tech or s14.net you don't have all that bullshit and babycrying attitude.

u mad? hahah