Sales of the GM Volt.

[brainspo0n]

but: plug-in hybrids still have their ICE for backup, making them very versatile. The MPG figures shoot through the roof once the owner is used to driving these things.

talk to any electric car owner. Range anxiety really isn't an issue once you get used to it. You don't always need to charge the batteries completely, and in fact doing a partial charge will extend the batteries operational lifespan.

BMW has stated that battery tech will advance more in the next five years than it has in the previous 100. Exaggeration, sure, but something to think about. The batteries in the Leaf are pretty good as it is.

Also, what's wrong with people buying/driving hybrids and electric cars? It just saves gas for us!

[joshh]

wow, you guys are asses. Volt is a great car. I only fault them for not jumping in with both feet, but it's a hell of a lot better than anyone else is doing right now.

$40k....no thanks...that alone makes it pretty pointless because the average person will never be able to afford this over priced GM lug.

plug-in hybrids are actually a really good solution for a lot of people. The Volt is a good idea, and GM went up a notch in my book when they put it on the market.

electric cars are not for everyone, just like the AC Cobra is not for everyone. They are tools for a job, and they damn well should be available.

It's a good "in between" technology. In 10-15 years we're going to be laughing at these POS we built.
If you're life is so boring and all you ever do is drive from home to work sure. But even when I'm working part time, I'm having to run out to different places to get hardware. Most of the time unknown when I get to work. These cars have a very small market. Plus if all you ever do is drive to and from work...the mileage makes less sense.

[brainspo0n]

It's a good "in between" technology. In 10-15 years we're going to be laughing at these POS we built.
If you're life is so boring and all you ever do is drive from home to work sure. But even when I'm working part time, I'm having to run out to different places to get hardware. Most of the time unknown when I get to work. These cars have a very small market. Plus if all you ever do is drive to and from work...the mileage makes less sense.

Your personal commute has nothing to do with the rest of the market. The average daily commute in America is about 25 miles. You do the math.

As far as the market is concerned, well, how many Prius drivers do you think I can hit with one rock?

[brainspo0n]

keep in mind I've got a good arm and live in Washington

[joshh]

Your personal commute has nothing to do with the rest of the market. The average daily commute in America is about 25 miles. You do the math.

As far as the market is concerned, well, how many Prius drivers do you think I can hit with one rock?

Commute...what about driving while at work...that's why you don't see many POS eco cars doing this.
The average commute is 25 minutes (one way) not 25 miles. The vast majority of the population is in heavily populated areas. Which means short trips.
Even if it's 25 miles I'd gladly keep my gas guzzler E36 or gas saving Rabbit over a POS eco car that all you can really be happy about is the gas savings. And I'll still be able to autocross or track either because they both have enough power to weight (ratio) to get out of their own way. Although track driving is pointless for the average American, power isn't. Although a car having some power in America can also be argued because generally Americans are the suck at driving.


What's the price of the Prius? Rhetorical...the Prius I can see because even though it's over priced for what you get it does get good mileage. The Volt is a waste of space in this world.

[brainspo0n]

Commute...what about driving while at work...that's why you don't see many POS eco cars doing this.
The average commute is 25 minutes (one way) not 25 miles. The vast majority of the population is in heavily populated areas. Which means short trips.
Even if it's 25 miles I'd gladly keep my gas guzzler E36 or gas saving Rabbit over a POS eco car that all you can really be happy about is the gas savings. And I'll still be able to autocross or track either because they both have enough power to weight (ratio) to get out of their own way.


What's the price of the Prius? Rhetorical...the Prius I can see because even though it's over priced for what you get it does get good mileage. The Volt is a waste of space in this world.

Yeah, I'd rather have a Rabbit too (with a 1.9td swap)

but nobody cares about what I want! They have to market the car towards Joe Average before they worry about enthusiast cars. Why do you think Toyota has been pretty much void of any enthusiast's models for so long? Because they want to outsell GM, and in order to do so they have to focus on the boring stuff.

We're a minority, dude.

And the Volt is a great idea. Think about it: if Joe Average never drove more than 40 miles a day he wouldn't have to fuel up. BUT he can drive it on long trips thanks to the Volt's ICE. There's even a "mountain mode" for the Volt where it completely bypasses the electric drive train. It's like having two cars. Plus, it drives like a normal car, with everything Joe Average wants.

It is expensive though, even after the tax breaks, etc. That's the only drawback I can see. But, then again, a lot of Joe Averages spend ridiculous money on the cars they use merely for commuting.

And electric cars are good news for enthusiasts, even if none of us ever own one.

edit: I must add: if used correctly a plug-in hybrid or fully electric vehicle will, at the very least, pay for the difference between it and a conventional ICE car eventually. We're talking one cent per mile if you do it right.

[joshh]

Yeah, I'd rather have a Rabbit too (with a 1.9td swap)

but nobody cares about what I want! They have to market the car towards Joe Average before they worry about enthusiast cars. Why do you think Toyota has been pretty much void of any enthusiast's models for so long? Because they want to outsell GM, and in order to do so they have to focus on the boring stuff.

We're a minority, dude.

And the Volt is a great idea. Think about it: if Joe Average never drove more than 40 miles a day he wouldn't have to fuel up. BUT he can drive it on long trips thanks to the Volt's ICE. There's even a "mountain mode" for the Volt where it completely bypasses the electric drive train. It's like having two cars. Plus, it drives like a normal car, with everything Joe Average wants.

It is expensive though, even after the tax breaks, etc. That's the only drawback I can see. But, then again, a lot of Joe Averages spend ridiculous money on the cars they use merely for commuting.

And electric cars are good news for enthusiasts, even if none of us ever own one.

Cost is everything to me. Mileage vs cost of the Volt will never catch up with buying and maintaining a used car. And the lack of power is another thing. Range as well (having to fucking plug in your car...lol). I don't ever see owning one of these things. And for those who have money...why bother when you can have a far more powerful car for a similar price (I don't buy into man made Global Warming).
Plus the infrastructure they have to build to charge the electric ones...holy hell.

[brainspo0n]

sorry if you didn't catch this:

I must add: if used correctly a plug-in hybrid or fully electric vehicle will, at the very least, pay for the difference between it and a conventional ICE car eventually. We're talking one cent per mile if you do it right.

Also all those charging stations going in are sort of the funny thing. They might be needed once electric cars really take off, but as of right now it's total overkill. Current electric car owners are very conscious of their range, etc. They charge at home or at work.

Also, potentially electric car batteries will be more of an asset to the grid. If designed for it, the future grid could incorporate the storage capacity of these cars. As long as the driver gets in and has the charge they expect, who cares what the overnight charging profile looks like?

All of this = jobs, too.

[brainspo0n]

Also, power is not an issue either. The Leaf accelerates faster than any Leaf owner will ever need it to.


edit: I used to hate the idea too, but I've read enough about electric cars and have spoken with people. It's a good thing, all around. Even the emissions issue is pretty much erroneous as far as I'm concerned.

[rwh11385]

But what about the cost of replacing the batteries? $20k or more down the road?

The market will be flooded, eventually, with used EV's no one will buy because cost to repair makes less sense than cost to replace.

[brainspo0n]

it's a possibility that replaceable batteries will be used in future plug-in cars, sort of like a giant cordless drill this will keep good batteries in circulation and old batteries can be dealt with accordingly

but you're right, as of right now electric car batteries are costly to replace. Although most of the original Honda Insights are still running around with their original batteries, and they only cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $1300 to replace.

All of these are concerns that must be addressed for consumers. The major auto manufacturers have a lot of work to do there. Nissan was smart in marketing the Leaf by not making a huge deal about it (no more than any other new car anyway). It's a car people can hop in and drive, and that's what they need to sell it as. No muss, no fuss, just don't forget to plug it in at night.

[imsotyerred]

Also, power is not an issue either. The Leaf accelerates faster than any Leaf owner will ever need it to.


edit: I used to hate the idea too, but I've read enough about electric cars and have spoken with people. It's a good thing, all around. Even the emissions issue is pretty much erroneous as far as I'm concerned.

you forget the CO2 released in the production of the batteries...That alone far outweighs any argument that EV cars are green.

Shit, we're being green for keeping our 20yo cars, anyone buying a new car is the exact opposite of 'green'

[mrsleeve]

you forget the CO2 released in the production of the batteries...That alone far outweighs any argument that EV cars are green.

Shit, we're being green for keeping our 20yo cars, anyone buying a new car is the exact opposite of 'green'

some one sees though the bull shit and propaganda

[brainspo0n]

yes, nickel-metal hydride batteries are terrible for the environment, and lithium ion units are not much better. So much so that recycling them is actually more of a detriment to the environment than a benefit.

I concede that this is one of the hurdles needed to get over, but there are interesting developments in silicone batteries, etc. If we can replace or improve current battery technology (it's happening as we speak), and energy derived from fossil fuels goes the way of the dinosaur (coal plants are being shut down gradually) then hopefully by that time electric cars will already be in place along with a more modern power grid that can use them as an asset.

It was always going to be a big job marketing the electric car, and conventional ICE cars aren't going anywhere for now, but it's technology that needs some competition in order to get off the ground. I think the technology required to make electric cars decent will also be integrated into the designs of gas burners (electric cars MUST get lighter) and the competition between the two is a good thing. You can say it's just shifting the burden, but no solution is going to be an instant fix, not when we're so dependent on the cars we drive now.

[rwh11385]

it's a possibility that replaceable batteries will be used in future plug-in cars, sort of like a giant cordless drill this will keep good batteries in circulation and old batteries can be dealt with accordingly

but you're right, as of right now electric car batteries are costly to replace. Although most of the original Honda Insights are still running around with their original batteries, and they only cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $1300 to replace.

All of these are concerns that must be addressed for consumers. The major auto manufacturers have a lot of work to do there. Nissan was smart in marketing the Leaf by not making a huge deal about it (no more than any other new car anyway). It's a car people can hop in and drive, and that's what they need to sell it as. No muss, no fuss, just don't forget to plug it in at night.

You sound like an idiot in paragraph #1.

Yes, the original Insight was a hybrid with a .9 kwh battery capacity. The leaf has 30 kwh capacity. Multiple $1300 by 30/.9 and consider how much money that would be to shell out for a 10 year old car.

Nissan did put out an anti-Volt ad, which made fun of it for using gas as a backup, and GM retorted with a tweet about at least the Volt's backup isn't a flat bed or rental car.

Nissan's leaf's range is thanks to them telling people to run it down to 95% DoD which will shorten the life of the batteries dramatically. (Sure, the last 4 kwh is in "limp mode" but that doesn't mean people won't be using it) On the other hand, Volt's engine kicks on to recharge and condition it at certain discharge levels to keep them going stronger for longer.

Bottom line, in 2020, there is gonna be a shit-ton of paperweights with Nissan Leaf badges on them.