Sales of the GM Volt.

[rwh11385]

That's a cool looking motor.


http://www.caranddriver.com/news/fer...ept-auto-shows

The Future of Ferrari

Indeed, the Ferrari engineers with whom we met plainly stated that hybridization is the only way the company can make cars that improve on their predecessors’ performance and, just as important, meet new emissions standards both here in the U.S. and in Europe. If it doesn’t meet emissions targets, Ferrari will have to pay hefty fines or simply not sell cars.

[dirtysix]

I always have a little chuckle at people under the impression their ignorance on a subject is reason enough to dismiss it's validity.

Enlighten me then.

Tell me how adding a bank of batteries and an electric motor plus associated electronics to a petrol or diesel car increases it's efficiency in design, manufacture and resource use.

Other than a small decrease in fuel use, which can be achieved by other means, what other benefits are there?

[u3b3rg33k]

Enlighten me then.

Tell me how adding a bank of batteries and an electric motor plus associated electronics to a petrol or diesel car increases it's efficiency in design, manufacture and resource use.

Other than a small decrease in fuel use, which can be achieved by other means, what other benefits are there?

For the same reason that adding a $9k turbo compounding system to a diesel truck saves fuel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_engine

It was once considered to be too expensive and complex, now it's worthwhile given the fuel savings.

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/engines/dd15/specs.aspx

"Turbo Compound System converts wasted energy and boosts torque without sacrificing fuel. Adds up to 50 bonus horsepower while providing up to a 5% fuel savings over other engines. "

Fuck torque. no one likes that stuff.

[quote]Just a 6% fuel improvement can save a fleet of 50 trucks $72,500 net annually at $2.50 per gallon, or $87,000 net annually at $3.00 per gallon. The higher the fuel price, the greater the savings. The larger the fleet, the larger the savings.[quote]http://www.patriot-environmental.com/Orion5000-EL.html

Another advantage of hybrid systems is you can hold the engine closer to stoich and make up the power difference with the electric motor, improving BSFC across the board.

But hey, I'm sure BMW just throws money willy nilly at cars and hopes for the best.

[rwh11385]

Enlighten me then.

Tell me how adding a bank of batteries and an electric motor plus associated electronics to a petrol or diesel car increases it's efficiency in design, manufacture and resource use.

Other than a small decrease in fuel use, which can be achieved by other means, what other benefits are there?

The same can be said of adding a turbocharger is an attempt of increasing efficiency by adding complexity.

The turbocharger harnesses waste heat energy that would have otherwise become thermal pollution.

In the same manner, regenerative braking replaces heat energy created by friction of the brake pads and rotor to generate electricity which replaces the need for some mechanical energy production of the engine.

In terms of electrical energy storage, there are several options, the most common today is the battery... but that's not ruling out kinetic energy storage or using a capacitor. It's arguable that a vast number of batteries draws on the global demand for rare earth metals which is reasonable, but then again these can be re-used later for household energy storage down the road to help with asymmetric demand throughout the day.

In one of the 'simplest' use of electrification, BMW harnesses through regen braking electricity that recharges the pretty conventionally sized battery and reduces the need for alternator load which improves fuel consumption and improves acceleration without much additional investment or manufacturing needs. The future of hybrids is the logical progression of matching benefits and outputs with costs and inputs.

Simply laughing at new technology and its complexity is like frowning on fuel injection, direct injection, and computer ignition control, etc. It was probably WAY complex and disliked by people at the time who liked simpler, albeit slightly less efficient engines... although through time you can see how far we have gotten with systems such as variable valve timing, etc.

[dirtysix]

All good examples of putting wasted energy to good use.

But somewhat tenuous link to hybrid tech.

And none of them address the increase in energy use to mine and manufacture the additional materials required and then assemble them into vehicles. I wonder whether they use hybrid excavators and trucks hmmm.

As for BM, they engineer for a market, and for some reason the market thinks hybrids are a good idea.

[rwh11385]

All good examples of putting wasted energy to good use.

But somewhat tenuous link to hybrid tech.

And none of them address the increase in energy use to mine and manufacture the additional materials required and then assemble them into vehicles. I wonder whether they use hybrid excavators and trucks hmmm.

As for BM, they engineer for a market, and for some reason the market thinks hybrids are a good idea.

Actually, you just need to google for the Life Cycle Analysis of different locomotive means to find cradle to grave impacts... not hard.

http://www.cars21.com/files/papers/Boureima-paper.pdf

Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) is a standardized methodology [1,2] which studies the environmental aspects and potential impacts of a product/service from ‘cradle-to-grave’ i.e. from raw material acquisition through production and use until disposal.

The greenhouse effect analysis shows that the Gasoline car has the worst score and the BEV the best one. The hybrid car is slightly better than the LPG car. These results are directly linked to the type and the consumption rate of vehicle fuels.

http://solar.gwu.edu/index_files/Resources_files/LCA_for_PHEVs.pdf

. However, meaningful GHG emissions reductions with PHEVs [plug-in hybrid electric vehicle] are conditional on low-carbon electricity sources. We assess life cycle GHG emissions from PHEVs and find that they reduce GHG emissions by 32% compared to conventional vehicles, but have small reductions compared to traditional hybrids. Batteries are an important component of PHEVs, and GHGs associated with lithium-ion battery materials and production account for 2–5% of life cycle emissions from PHEVs.

If PHEVs have high adoption in two or three fleet cycles from now, the electricity supply technology decisions made within the next ten years will affect the GHG intensity of the electricity system encountered by those vehicles. A commitment to developing a low-carbon electricity portfolio becomes even more important if large GHG reductions from PHEVs are desired within the current cycle of electricity capital turnover.

Before you claim that NO ONE address the environmental impact of mining for battery raw materials... you might want to spend 30 seconds at Google.com

[dirtysix]

Those links seem to be about environmental impacts, not efficiency.

[rwh11385]

Those links seem to be about environmental impacts, not efficiency.

Considering GHG are released as a result of using fuel and only a small fraction of the total life cycle GHG generation is tied to battery raw material sourcing and manufacturing, only a small percentage of total lifecycle energy usage is tied to battery sourcing and production.

It's not like pumping from the ground doesn't take energy either... and transporting crude or gas is more energy-demanding than electricity... which also benefits from many more point-of-origin options.

[dirtysix]

I just want to get this straight.

You're suggesting that it is possible to tie a vehicles life cycle efficiency directly to (lets assume for a moment there is such a thing) Greenhouse Gas Emissions?

[rwh11385]

I just want to get this straight.

You're suggesting that it is possible to tie a vehicles life cycle efficiency directly to (lets assume for a moment there is such a thing) Greenhouse Gas Emissions?

What do you think the machines run on? Some magically hopes and dreams that don't create GHG? If the raw material acquiring produce GHG, that can loosely be related to the energy consumption because the more fuel burned = more GHG.

If GHG of acquisition and production of batteries is a tiny fraction of total lifecycle, then so ought be the related energy consumption.

What is wrong with that assumption?

Since GHG/Energy for the production of batteries is a tiny aspect of the total, then over the life of the car, production of the batteries is a tiny influence on total efficiency of the vehicle.

For all three batteries, the manufacture energy requirements are a major cause of GWP.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011...0421.html#more

[Wiglaf]

An electric motor capable of casually dropping 1000ft-lbs of torque from 0rpms on up has no efficiency penalty compared to a smaller motor, save for a few extra pounds of copper. actually it will likely be more efficient.
Unlike a large displacement V8 compared to an compact inline 4. This extra weight is ok since you can totally lose the transmission.

Average power for a car to cruise 80mph is like 25HP. so have a little motorcycle size generator tuned for max efficiency, and a driveline that eats planets. Best of both worlds.

To me this has nothing to do with being green. It's about the car being more powerful, responsive, smoother, and more reliable. The second you drive an electric you'll be wondering why we've put up with transmissions and crappy torque curves for so long.

If the car had a motor for each wheel to fully realize torque vectored steering with independent traction adjustment for each wheel, would I still have to endure arguments about what the gas price will have to be for a 10 year payoff? The GTR is the closest thing we have, it costs an arm and a leg and has this huge fuckoff transmission that's apparently made of glass.

The LOL PRIUS argument is like basing your entire gas motor opinion off a yugo. So knock it off, the quicker these get out there the quicker they'll crash and I'll have decent motors to play with. That is all.

This is why. Throttle response quicker than the lightest little sportbike motor, virtually no driveline to slop about with, gobs of torque from 0 rpm, direct (down to the millisecond) control over how much power is being put down, no warmup time to fuss about with, bulky intake and exhaust systems, vibration and noise. Gas motors are just unacceptable in comparison to electric for the purpose of making wheels move.

I want a little 1 liter miller-cycle 3 cyl diesel generator in there. max power, rpms, throttle response are all a non-factor. tune for max efficiency.This thing could probably be made without a head gasket and have no accessory belts whatsoever. Just a steady 25HP is all we need. (This in itself would be more efficient than any generator I can seem to find on the market right now...they are all cheap carbed bullshit).

Just add ~5 miles worth of high-power battery. Plenty to turn an onramp into a 1/4mi run, etc.

The electric of course would be a more complicated system but virtually all of it is non-moving parts. The worst part here is the generator with all of the shortcomings of handling and burning fuel, but it is necessary because of cost/range issues with batteries.

And yes, I would believe this to be the superior solution even if it only got 20mpg. But I am confident it would get 60+ easy. That's just icing on the cake after having something with superior performance and reliability. Doubly so if this was for a work truck, camper, or rock crawler.

[rwh11385]

Hey, if you want a 20mpg 'superior' EV to a GT3 half-assed hybrid, then that's on you...

[dirtysix]

Hey, if you want a 20mpg 'superior' EV to a GT3 half-assed hybrid, then that's on you...

And if efficiency is what I'm looking for, I'll take a Ford Focus diesel rated at 67mpg. Hell, they even find BMW diesels bettering Prius consumption figures.

Eventually the problem of energy storage and distribution associated with electric vehicles will be overcome. In the meantime, hybrids are a stopgap measure marketed to people who pretend to care.

[Wiglaf]

Look, I'm sure the engineers don't think it's half-assed. And as a car I'm sure it's badass. It's just not nearly as good as it would be if they would jump in with both feet instead of tiptoe taptances with tiny toy electric motors.

[rwh11385]

And if efficiency is what I'm looking for, I'll take a Ford Focus diesel rated at 67mpg. Hell, they even find BMW diesels bettering Prius consumption figures.

Eventually the problem of energy storage and distribution associated with electric vehicles will be overcome. In the meantime, hybrids are a stopgap measure marketed to people who pretend to care.

Yeah, diesels are good options... but Americans generally HATE them.

So eventually the complexity will be worth it? Not just saying let's keep driving diesels until oil is too expensive to drive on?