Koran burnings in Florida

[CorvallisBMW]

Has anyone else been following this story? The same pastor who was going to put on the "Burn the Koran Day" actually did burn one a few weeks ago,

...if found guilty of causing murder, rape and terrorism, it will be executed!" Another post on the website, which uses an alternative spelling for the book, says "the Koran was found guilty" during the mock trial and "a copy was burned inside the building.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/01/afghanistan.un.attack/index.html?iref=allsearch

When a group of Afghans heard about this last week during a Fridays prayer sermon, they ended up rioting through the streets, attacking a UN compound and killing 7 innocent people inside (none of whom were Americans). How much of this anger was intrinsic in the sermon-goers and how much was instilled in them by their Imam during the sermon is hard to know.

Terry Jones, the pastor, has made it his mission to call attention to what he sees as the violence and hatred within Islam as he sees it. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint), the reaction of some Muslims has only served to strengthen his message.

Personally I'm a bit torn on this whole situation. While I support Mr Jones' right to free speech (burning a Koran is no different than burning a flag), does he bare responsibility for the reaction(s) it causes? If you know full-well that your actions will lead to a violent and often deadly reaction, do you still have the right to do it? Is it the same as yelling 'FIRE!!' in a crowded theater? Or does the responsibility lie exclusively with the rioters?

I'm curious to hear other's viewpoints on this.

[z31maniac]

Responsibility? Absolutely not.
Is he helping the situation? Absolutely not.

Responsibility lies with the rioters. It's not like they just stood outside the UN compound holding signs and shouting witty phrases, they stormed in with weapons and DECAPITATED people. It's not like you accidently behead multiple people.

Granted, I don't understand the level of devotion/faith associated with religion, but this was anything but a reasonable response.

[tjts1]

What book can I burn to bring our troops back home?

[Farbin Kaiber]

[CorvallisBMW]

Responsibility? Absolutely not.
Is he helping the situation? Absolutely not.

Responsibility lies with the rioters. It's not like they just stood outside the UN compound holding signs and shouting witty phrases, they stormed in with weapons and DECAPITATED people. It's not like you accidently behead multiple people.

Granted, I don't understand the level of devotion/faith associated with religion, but this was anything but a reasonable response.

I think he does bear some responsibility though. Like I said, it's just the same as yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. People are going to go nuts, stampede, and someone will undoubtedly get hurt or even die. The Supreme Court ruled unanimously on Schneck v. United States in 1919 that, "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic. [...] The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." Considering the most likely target of the extremist rage would be Americans, it would seem that in this case the US would have the right to censor Pastor Jones if they so decided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater

The reaction of the crowds was, of course, ridiculous, intolerable and completely deplorable. And surely they are the ones who directly committed the acts. But lets not gloss over the fact that they've been completely brainwashed since birth to believe that this is the appropriate way to respond to such a rumor. They believe their reaction to be just as righteous as Pastor Jones believes his. I firmly believe blame lies with both.

If I had it my way, the AG or another high-ranking DOJ official would have a little talk with Jones and explain that what he is doing really hurts the country's efforts overseas. No threats or anything, just an explanation. Then I'd have the Imam who gave the sermon that led to the riots "disappeared". I think that would address both ends of the issue.

[z31maniac]

Except in that case the person is physically there inciting the violence. That's why I ignored it in your original post because I don't think it's a valid point.

If I say "Guys from the PNW suck!" and then some random PNW guys find a someone from OK and kill them, am I partially to blame?

[ak-]

lol'd

[ak-]

If I say "Guys from the PNW suck!" and then some random PNW guys find a someone from OK and kill them, am I partially to blame?

Well, the variable is if you are aware that the PNW guys are violent, no?
If you do, then I guess you're partially to blame. Kind of like throwing rocks at a hornets nest(something I always loved doing as a kid) knowing shit could get real yo.

[Raxe]

Well, the variable is if you are aware that the PNW guys are violent, no?
If you do, then I guess you're partially to blame. Kind of like throwing rocks at a hornets nest(something I always loved doing as a kid) knowing shit could get real yo.

That's actually a really interesting analogy. Do you blame the kid throwing rocks at the hornets nest when the hornets get pissed off and sting a bunch of people nearby? Yes. Can we compare hornets to Muslims? Not really.

I don't know what to think here. I do put a some blame on the pastor, it was a stupid thing to do and he was aware of the consequences, but I put far more blame on the people acting like dumb insects.

[jasonsnoddy]

Everyone just needs to chill the fuck out and smoke a j.

[Ryann]

The same pastor who was going to put on the "Burn the Koran Day" actually did burn one a few weeks ago

A "Christian" leader/spokesperson acting in a way that is in complete discord with the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Bible.

..a group of Afghans heard about this last week during a Fridays prayer sermon, they ended up rioting through the streets, attacking a UN compound and killing 7 innocent people inside (none of whom were Americans).

Muslims acting in complete discord with the teachings of Mohammed and the moral guidelines of the Quran.

Fucking religious idiots, all of them.

[bimma360]

I in no sense condone any of the actions of both parties. However, going on a murderous rampage b/c someone burned your book of faith is absurd.

As far as the whole screaming "fire" in a crowded movie theater analogy, I don't think its applicable to this situation. A little excerpt from CorvallisBMW's post basically affirms that.

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."

The key terms to that are "clear and present danger." If we were to say that speaking against Islam, lets say in the form of a book burning, is to create a "clear and present danger," then well what are we saying about the Islamic community as a whole?

[vivalegreg]

Everyone just needs to chill the fuck out and smoke a j.

pretty much...

and its events like these that take place (religious extremists from either sides doing stupid ridiculous shit and hurting/taking advantage of innocent people) that i dont follow it.

[delfin]

Religion. I lol'd.

[z31maniac]

I in no sense condone any of the actions of both parties. However, going on a murderous rampage b/c someone burned your book of faith is absurd.

As far as the whole screaming "fire" in a crowded movie theater analogy, I don't think its applicable to this situation. A little excerpt from CorvallisBMW's post basically affirms that.

"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent."

The key terms to that are "clear and present danger." If we were to say that speaking against Islam, lets say in the form of a book burning, is to create a "clear and present danger," then well what are we saying about the Islamic community as a whole?

Well put.