Shame on the US public, Champion sportswear

[Turf1600]

In my opinion, who cares about all the moral, holier than thou bullshit.

A man who abandons his morals because it's favorable to his position is hardly a man at all. This is my qualm with the entire situation.

Other than that I'll let your ill-informed post serve as my argument.

[Turf1600]

I just really don't care enough about what you think to keep typing, I'm sure you feel similarly. I mean I understand everyone thinks differently it just blows my mind how that thought process makes sense to you. Lets just leave at is we'll never agree and move on.

Speak for yourself. I made this post because I'm interested in the opinions of others. I allow myself the pleasure of skepticism - especially in regard to my own opinions. I allow myself to do that because I have faith in what I believe in. Anyone who closes his eyes and ears to differing opinions must not have any confidence in their own beliefs.

As an aside, the only way to grow as a person is through introspective reflection. Speaking freely and observing the response forces me to refine my opinions and my beliefs. As an example, this conversation has made me more interested in reading the bible again. I feel that there may be value there that I can add to my life. No matter what the result of this conversation is I ultimately win as a result.

[LBJefferies]

A man who abandons his morals because it's favorable to his position is hardly a man at all. This is my qualm with the entire situation.

Other than that I'll let your ill-informed post serve as my argument.

Who said that me or anyone else was abandoning their morals on this one? It's not like we are celebrating the death of an innocent man here. Bin Laden was GUILTY of murdering thousands of innocent people. In this case, the moral thing to do is to kill him so that he does not kill any others. We can now celebrate the fact that no more people will die at the hands of Bin Laden. We can celebrate the fact that the people who have died fighting in Afghanistan did not die a meaningless death. We can now celebrate the fact that this chapter in America's history is coming to a close and we can look to the future.

People seem to have this flawed belief that America needs to be entirely moral and entirely good at all times and under all circumstances or else it is somehow illegitimate. I say that America needs to look out for itself sometimes and not try to be so damn politically correct all the time.

[Rsully70sev]

Proof that the atheist community is disgusted by our reactions? Did you talk with their designated representative or.....?

As for elaborating on #1, in my opinion, there's a difference between "good" people being killed, and "bad" people being killed. [If you respond with some bullshit question like, what defines a person as being good, I'm shutting off my computer.] The US citizens were killed for no reason. They were not instrumental in destructive terrorist activity, the deaths of innocent people, training CHILDREN for combat, [9/11] etc. etc. etc. etc. However, Osama was GUILTY. In terms of morality, I understand that a death is a death, and should not be celebrated.

Example: I would celebrate the death of Hitler, but on the other hand, I would not celebrate the death of JFK. But why? Death is death right?

You're comparing unwarrented murders to vindication. Our main motive is safety, plain and simple, theirs is to be destructive.

[Turf1600]

In this case, the moral thing to do is to kill him so that he does not kill any others.

I almost stopped reading right there. I probably should have.

First of all, do you seriously believe that Bin Laden's death will mark the end of terrorism? Evil has existed long before him and will continue to exist beyond our own lives.

I feel that it's appropriate that I respond with a quote by a man who heavily influenced our founding fathers and ultimately our own constitution:

"Loving enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has besides no meaning. It is incumbent on man, as a moralist, that he does not revenge an injury; and it is equally as good in a political sense, for there is no end to retaliation, each retaliates on the other, and calls it justice; but to love in proportion to the injury, if it could be done, would be to offer a premium for crime."

[Turf1600]

Our main motive is safety, plain and simple, theirs is to be destructive.

Anyone who believes that we are safer than we were a week ago is a fool. In fact, I'd wager that we are now the subject of further retaliation. Having that said, I still fail to see the cause for celebration.

[Rsully70sev]

I was referring to the entire operation and defense strategies as of 9.11---> having said that, anyone who doesn't believe we are safer due to our government's and military's efforts, is a fool.

And you didn't respond to my atheist rep question. You're entire argument is filled with questionable facts and references. Am I just supposed to take your word on this?

Requesting proof/response to:

-Atheist as a whole are in disgust over our reaction.
-The rest of the countries hate us for our reaction.
-Cite of your founding father quotation.
-Our goal was to kill Osama? [I'm pretty sure that John Brennan was in support of brining him home alive, but circumstances changed, so we had to adapt.]
-What is in disagreement with our constitution?
-How the fuck can you compare what happened on 9/11 to the killing of Bin Laden. THATS what disgust me.
-The NFL is a private organization, therefore they have the freedom to discriminate, retaliate, punish, etc etc however they see just. Just like the boy scouts refuse gays, they can run their enterprise however they want. Who are you to say otherwise? Its not the government that severed ties with him now is it?
-Why do you keep referring to the bible, our countries reactions, and the acts of the government as if they are all related and tied together? --->separation of church and state. Last I checked the US government doesn't check nor acknowledge the bible when it comes to situations like this.

[Turf1600]

I was referring to the entire operation and defense strategies as of 9.11---> having said that, anyone who doesn't believe we are safer due to our government's and military's efforts, is a fool.

Then I don't see how this is relevant.

And you didn't respond to my atheist rep question. Your entire argument is filled with questionable facts and references. Am I just supposed to take your word on this?

I have no expectations.

Requesting proof/response to:

-Atheist as a whole are in disgust over our reaction.

This is based solely on on my observations amongst my friends, acquaintences, various forums (specifically philosophy forums) and reddit. No verifiable data exists to support my claim.

-The rest of the countries hate us for our reaction.

I believe that this sort of perceived superiority was pobably the cause of 9/11 in the first place.

-Cite of your founding father quotation.

Thomas Paine

-Our goal was to kill Osama? [I'm pretty sure that John Brennan was in support of brining him home alive, but circumstances changed, so we had to adapt.]

The goal is irrelevant. The outcome and the events that followed are what's up for discussion.

-What is in disagreement with our constitution?

I'm no lawyer, but I know that you can not be fired because of your religious affiliation. I believe that Mendenhall could argue that he was terminated for practicing his religion. I may also feel this way because I personally feel that is unjust - and that his words were taken out of context.

-How the fuck can you compare what happened on 9/11 to the killing of Bin Laden. THATS what disgust me.

The events that followed were similar. I'm not commenting on whether either event was deserved. To us Bin Laden got what was coming to him - and obviously they felt the same way about 9/11. Who's right and who's wrong is obviously a matter of perspective. Having that said, that doesn't warrant similar behavior. Celebrating death seems below our level of civilization. Seeing that there are no real benefits of Bin Laden being dead I must conclude that everyone's happiness stems from the desire for revenge. This sort of behavior will never end unless someone (some population) gets it together.

-The NFL is a private organization, therefore they have the freedom to discriminate, retaliate, punish, etc etc however they see just. Just like the boy scouts refuse gays, they can run their enterprise however they want. Who are you to say otherwise? Its not the government that severed ties with him now is it?

As a matter of fact it wasn't the NFL either. It was Champion Sportswear. The legality of their actions is up for debate. Depending on his local labor laws he may have a good case. I don't know. Either way I feel that it was distasteful and that it sets a bad example. I am boycotting Champion and encouraging everyone I know to do so. Futile, I know - but what else can I do?

-Why do you keep referring to the bible, our countries reactions, and the acts of the government as if they are all related and tied together? --->separation of church and state. Last I checked the US government doesn't check nor acknowledge the bible when it comes to situations like this.

First of all, separation of church and state isn't real. It's just camouflaged. Otherwise, I'm not suggesting a relationship - only noting that the religious who have displayed behavior as I described it are not in line with their own principles. I feel that Rashard Mendenhall demonstrated this very well himself in his blog. You can also cite "thou who has not sinned shalt cast the first stone" and so on. I believe I said this earlier - forgiveness does not come with fine print. I don't believe in circumstancial exceptions in regards to ethics. I understand that the knee jerk reaction is to retaliate and kill everything - but that only perpetuates the revenge cycle.

The bottom line is that everything surrounding this situation is tragic. Nothing has been accomplished that will make up for what has been lost. It's a sad step on a sad staircase and nothing good will come out of it until someone does the right thing.

Since for some reason facts seem to be important to you in this ethical debate - what facts wuld you like to cite to support your claim that celebration is a just reaction to death?

[nrubenstein]

Um, it does not in any way impact his right to free speech. When a company hires someone as a spokesperson/representative, that person is hired to drive sales. If he chooses to exercise his right to speak in ways that are unfavorable to the company, then he should be dropped. (And I guarantee you that it's in the blog.)

As for killing off Bin Laden, good riddance. Will it make a difference? Probably not. Is it still a good thing? Yes. Do explain why it is that he didn't need killing? Even if he wasn't responsible for 9/11 (which he was), the egging on of the ismlamic world was enough.

[Rsully70sev]

I'm over this, I'll leave the ethical debates alone here at R3V. As Danny said, were aren't going to convince eachother otherwise.

I have my opinions, you have yours. I had family in NY during the time of the attack, my cousin was an economist from San Francisco who was killed in the towers visiting on business. Can you imagine being fresh out of college, landing a job at a fortune 500 company, excited to travel on business, and have that happen? Can you image being in my aunt's shoes watching the news, knowing your son was inside the building? All his efforts, ambition, and accomplishments destroyed and/or ended for what? Call it vengeance, revenge, justification, vindication, what ever you want. I'm happy with the outcome, and empathize with the other families effected by the hand of Bin Laden.

[z31maniac]

Anyone who believes that we are safer than we were a week ago is a fool. In fact, I'd wager that we are now the subject of further retaliation. Having that said, I still fail to see the cause for celebration.

And?

Fact: There is NOTHING the US can do to prevent attacks from Al-Qaida other than hunting them down and eradicating them.

Let's run a hypothetical situation:

Tomorrow Obama announces the IMMEDIATE withdraw of all troops currently in the Middle East/Asia, renounces support of Israel and tells the rest of the world to have a nice day.

Will the terrorist attacks stop? Or will their desire to destroy America remain their top priority?


How would keeping bin Laden alive made things better? Can you imagine the nightmare it would be to house, move and try in a court of law, the most wanted man in the history of the world?

How many hundreds of millions of dollars would that have cost?

[NKRoberts]

I was answering a question. The behavior that I have observed is not in line with the teachings of the bible. Seeing as less than 10% of the country is atheist I can only conclude that I witnessed the other 90% celebrating. How do they turn their back on their faith so easily?

Come on. Exaggerate much?

[Rsully70sev]

Um, it does not in any way impact his right to free speech. When a company hires someone as a spokesperson/representative, that person is hired to drive sales. If he chooses to exercise his right to speak in ways that are unfavorable to the company, then he should be dropped.

Example: Tiger Woods. He has the "freedom" to fuck whoever he wants. And Nike has the right to sever affiliation

[Turf1600]

Um, it does not in any way impact his right to free speech. When a company hires someone as a spokesperson/representative, that person is hired to drive sales. If he chooses to exercise his right to speak in ways that are unfavorable to the company, then he should be dropped. (And I guarantee you that it's in the blog.)

You may be right from a legal perspective - but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

As for killing off Bin Laden, good riddance. Will it make a difference? Probably not. Is it still a good thing? Yes. Do explain why it is that he didn't need killing? Even if he wasn't responsible for 9/11 (which he was), the egging on of the ismlamic world was enough.

I never argued whether or not the world is a better place with him in it. My problem is that so many people were so happy about it. Also, no one "needs killing". That is not for any of us to decide.

I don't feel like you read any posts except for maybe the first one....

[Turf1600]

And?

Fact: There is NOTHING the US can do to prevent attacks from Al-Qaida other than hunting them down and eradicating them.

Let's run a hypothetical situation:

Tomorrow Obama announces the IMMEDIATE withdraw of all troops currently in the Middle East/Asia, renounces support of Israel and tells the rest of the world to have a nice day.

Will the terrorist attacks stop? Or will their desire to destroy America remain their top priority?


How would keeping bin Laden alive made things better? Can you imagine the nightmare it would be to house, move and try in a court of law, the most wanted man in the history of the world?

How many hundreds of millions of dollars would that have cost?

Look, the dude above was arguing that the main goal was safety and that he's happy with the result. I'm only saying that the world is not a safer place today that it was with bin laden in it. Simple, right?