American Atheists Sue Over World Trade Center Cross

[mrsleeve]

^ on that note

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.- Thomas Jefferson

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one. - Thomas Jefferson

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson




I really think you all are missing something here.

The people that pull off the hijackings did so in the belief that Christians were and still are in a state of Holy Crusade against them in the holy land. Hence why the Red cross in Muslim dominated countries is the red CRESCENT. If you dont know why then look it up.

Like it or not this country and its ideals are founded upon western religious values and was a critical concept to keep the govt out of our lives. Your faith was thought to be your moral compass, in matters of your personal life. That way there was no need for over reaching over bearing govt to regulate every aspect of our daily interactions with each other. This is why there was no STATE endorsed religion, the founders knew that the church like govt will take freedoms away form people to garner power for the few at the top. By allowing you to worship what ever deity you chose assured that there would be NO 1 single dominant religion in this country that would rule with a iron fist like the mid-evil churches or Europe, and assured that the governance of the people remained, of the people, for the people..

I will say this one more time, the founders believed and expected that religion and govt together = a free, prosperous, moral and well regulated society. An for the most part they are correct.

[dinanm3atl]

My point was we can find quotes from every founding father to say one thing or the other.


CRAZY idea here... if they believe that Christians are in a state of Holy Wars against them. Do you think putting up a cross at the attack site would incite them? Or help ease the pain? Do you think we should try to ease the pain or should we do stuff to piss them off more?

[Turf1600]

You guys mention morals - but morality exists without religion. Jefferson, for instance, wrote "The Moral Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth" - AKA the jefferson bible - in an effort to separate morality from religion. Many of our founding fathers were deists - so yes, god may be mentioned - but don't make the mistake that they were always referring to the judeo-christian god. It's not like they were all southern baptists.

Side note: I wonder how many people in here believe in God but not Allah?

[mrsleeve]

^
God dammit not Deisits thing again, havent we been over this ??

My point was we can find quotes from every founding father to say one thing or the other.


CRAZY idea here... if they believe that Christians are in a state of Holy Wars against them. Do you think putting up a cross at the attack site would incite them? Or help ease the pain? Do you think we should try to ease the pain or should we do stuff to piss them off more?

No more so than them planing on building a Mosque 600 feet (or is it yards away) form the site and calling it Cordoba ???? That will really ease the pain huh??? We have no reason not to put one up, we are not in a Muslim dominated country, as far as I am concerned it should just be just like flipping them off. They are holding grudges for 700 ago, at the time of they pulled this off we were not really that active in their little sand box.


Like I said, we that dont partake in religion, are in the minority and we need respect those that do. Its a traditional symbol of reverence and loss in western society, leave it be.

[Turf1600]

Building a Mosque near ground zero is only a cause for angst because the christians in this country have been allowed to think and behave that way. Freedom of religion will die if not defended. "Leaving it be" will only allow more actions that are contrary to the intentions of our founding fathers.

[Ryann]

Makes perfect sense to me, Wall Street and the Christian establishment belong together in a memorial imo. Problem being they both exist beyond 9/11.

[mrsleeve]

Building a Mosque near ground zero is only a cause for angst because the christians in this country have been allowed to think and behave that way. Freedom of religion will die if not defended. "Leaving it be" will only allow more actions that are contrary to the intentions of our founding fathers.

The people behind the Mosque are doing it for their religious fervor, and because it customary for them to do so when they "win a great battle". Yes in principal I agree they should be allowed to put one up there. But again in the real world it should not happen it will be an even larger instigator of social problems to all of us regardless of your chosen faith, the fringes of all groups will inevitably clash there. Also if the religion of peace, practiced what they claim to preach, then this would be a non-issue and they would have gone else where to build a new "community center". But this is not the case now is it???






Ummmm over 3/4 of the people in this country associate them selves with some form of Christianity. Our laws and based on western religions core teachings. You are guaranteed freedom OF religion not FROM religion. Also no where is it implied that you when you are butt hurt about religion, that you can sue to alleviate you butt hurt. Because a hunk of rubble that stood out after the building came down that happens to look like a cross is being placed in a fucking museum, is no reason to get your panties in a wad over and sue those putting it in there to stop it on the grounds of separation of church and state. Because while it may hold some form of spiritual value for one person of faith, does not mean it holds the same for you or me. But the thing is its shape should not matter to those that have no religious predilection. It should bring us happiness that some shard of such a horrific series of events brings comfort and some semblance of peace to over 75% of every one else not to mention most of families of the victims .


All of you that support not displaying this should be very very ashamed of your selves, I know I am to even be associated. .

[Dozyproductions]

Now you're being contrarian for the sake of it.

Or you're very ignorant.

I'd like to believe the former.

quite the former. Yet, I'm going to have to agree with Turf on this one.

[Turf1600]

The people behind the Mosque are doing it for their religious fervor, and because it customary for them to do so when they "win a great battle". Yes in principal I agree they should be allowed to put one up there. But again in the real world it should not happen it will be an even larger instigator of social problems to all of us regardless of your chosen faith, the fringes of all groups will inevitably clash there. Also if the religion of peace, practiced what they claim to preach, then this would be a non-issue and they would have gone else where to build a new "community center". But this is not the case now is it???

How is this not hypocritical? If christians can erect crosses wherever they want for their "religious fervor" then why can't mosques be built for the same reason? Being for one and aginst the other doesn't make sense.

As for being ashamed - I got hammered for frowning upon the celebration of death when bin laden was killed. It annoys me that you'll generally be rewarded for supporting something equally backwards.

[mrsleeve]

Ummm Fairly sure I said in there in principal they should get to build where ever they want. Just that I feel that if islam is to put its (claimed) values where its mouth is they would not, and go else where out of compassion. but again they wont will they, this makes me (and any reasonable person) question the true motives of wanting to build this thing, especially when there have been multiple attempts form several organizations to buy the building from them for much more than was paid to get them to go else where. Its not the "community center" they want its the proximity to the "great victory" they want. I dont agree at all with it, for those reasoning but because I dont agree with dose not mean I am going to sue or try and stop them either....................... This is the point I think you failed to get


Like it or not this is a Christan nation even today. Like I said Freedom OF religion not FROM it. If you have no Faith then what the fuck do you care if someone puts up a fucking cross in the yard across from your house, suing (and support of such action) over such things is just a hypocritical as you are trying to make me out to be.

I think most people (here anyway) were rather happy that OBL/UBL meet his end.........................

[Turf1600]

I think most people (here anyway) were rather happy that OBL/UBL meet his end.........................

That's exactly what I don't like about it. Christians choose when to be christians and abandon their values when it feels good. You're right - the muslims probably aren't doing the right thing. But then again neither are the christians. All I'm asking is that someone step up and be consistent.

[Ryann]

If you have no Faith then what the fuck do you care if someone puts up a fucking cross in the yard across from your house

I agree with this Sleeve. ANY group attempting to use due process for the bolstering of their position on spirituality or lack there of is wasting time and energy.

Christians choose when to be christians and abandon their values when it feels good. You're right - the muslims probably aren't doing the right thing. But then again neither are the christians. All I'm asking is that someone step up and be consistent.

+1.

[dinanm3atl]

I know plenty of people that would answer "I am a Christian" yet they do not go to church. They spend their lives trying to get superficial things. They swear. They curse. They do not come even close to living the life of a righteous Christian. The list goes on. When asked how many times they have been to church in the last year they do not remember. They would still say "I am a Christian". That number is of 3/4 IMO is a false statistic.

There is a difference between a privately held building. You can buy a billboard and put a cross on it. Even driven on 75 going to or from Florida? 1/2 the billboards are telling you that if you are not one with Jesus... well your life and the 'life' after you die is going to suck. We are talking about a government building here. We are not talking about Joe Blows diner wanting to put a cross on it. He can do that if he chooses.

[mrsleeve]

^
right it includes those that believe in god (christian flavor) but not the details. You dont have to "live the life" nor attend church to be a christian. Yes they are included in that 75% stat. Actually 76% 2008 and 85ish in 1990.

Now the port authority only owns a portion of the land for WTC complex and some of the building, fairly sure there are private groups that have a significant stake in the complex as well. This creates quite a quagmire for this argument.

Again its a chunk of rubble, what it means to you (if you have no faith) should be something of your own choosing, what it means to others is really no business of yours or mine, that is between themselves and thats it. If they chose to see a Cross in it then so be it, why would you of no faith give a fuck??? This argument is no different than the religious wackos out there wanting to limit our choice in entertainment, reproduction, and what we do with other consenting adults. All it amounts to is "Because I dont like it, and feel offended by it then it should be banned"






Ryan:
So like I Said let them have their chuck of rubble that means one thing to them and something else to us and let be put on display in the fucking Museum.

[dinanm3atl]

That's exactly what I don't like about it. Christians choose when to be christians and abandon their values when it feels good. You're right - the muslims probably aren't doing the right thing. But then again neither are the christians. All I'm asking is that someone step up and be consistent.

This is what I was getting at in my post. Being "Christian" has become this socially moral standing that puts you above other people. "I am a Christian" holds standing to most of the population. It means you can be trusted. It means you are truthful. You are morally righteous. When it comes down to it these people are not going to church. They probably go on Easter and Christmas so they keep it a little connected.

It is to the point that many churches are now offering, and have been offering, to watch their services on the internet. Someone that is so believing in their faith that there is a guy in the sky that made them and controls their life... but they can't wake up on Sunday morning at 8am to go to church. It's a convenience thing for many of the 3/4 of the country.

Now my opinions are not that all Christians are like this but this is in my personal life.