Global Warming is over.

[rwh11385]

Considering all the deductions, credits, and loopholes in the code, getting renewable energy off the ground and competitive with other countries who could leave us behind with an energy advantage, there are more important costs to worry about. Energy is a national security issue and falling behind should not be done at favor of Big Oil, Coal, and Gas. They certainly have benefited from tax benefits and subsidies over their development. The DoD isn't allowing itself from falling behind, why should the rest of the country? They want to be sustainable to maintain affordability and independence from relying on others to perform.


On site power production also will decrease the strain on our power infrastructure. So think of it as saving us from load on the system.

[Q5Quint]

Our bill for electricity alone $699 for july - and that doesn't include the barn bill, which was around $370 or so. We looked at a few systems, the largest of which was an 8kW roof mount......

Jesus what the hell are you doing in there~ the average is about 800-1000kwh per month for a house....

If you get 4.5 hours of sun a day (on average, you get more in the summer and less in the winter) you get 135 'sun hours' a month.... so 800/135 is 5.9kw and the efficient houses we are building use half that for heating, cooling, and water heating all electric utility houses.... hence me dropping down into 4kw range.

I feel like you have awkwardly high usage combined with a installer that doesn't know what he was doing. Ground mount should cost more since you have to dig and pour concrete foundations.... but most people turn this into a excuse to build a nice patio/carport.

What is the payback on a normal carport? Exactly. What is the payback time on a solar carport? 10-15 years? And then you keep getting paid? Awesome.

Just think of it like buying a 4-10kw generator that requires no fuel or maintenance, runs 4.5 hours a day, and is warrantied to produce juice for 20 years. (the micro-inverters are also 20 years now I believe- new systems are just a panel+micro inverter hooked into the grid so you only have 2 parts)

If you are spending 699 a month...... the last house I did spends $1000 A YEAR on a all electric a/c and heated 2200sq ft house. Heating elements (hot tubs) and old fridges can waste a shitton of electricity. My bills are about $150 in the wintertime for heating a all-electric 1500sqft tiny house. Heat pumps are the shizzle when your house actually has insulation. Do you have insulation?

I also eat bambi every chance I get. Ready for bow season to start on the 10th.

So your goal is to save money only if its at the expense of the rest of us paying for the equipment, for you????.

The flipside of this is taxpayers paying to build a new powerplant for a for- profit power company which is even more fcked up. Should we support individuals producing their own power or companies that make money by using taxpayer money to build a power plant and then charge taxpayers again for the service they paid to build?

Just like any tax write-off scenario I don't think you can use the argument 'we are paying for your....' with anything since you get tax writeoffs for business expenses (we pay for your business expense!) kids (we pay for YOUR kids?) tuition interest (we pay for YOUr tuition!) etc etc.

Solar is a special case and a lot of die-hard tree huggers are pissed since the only people that can actually take advantage of ANY of these subsidies..... have to have tax appetite/liability already.... ie be decently rich already. If you arnt already paying 30k in taxes this year how the hell can you 'write off' 30k? You cant. So the subsidies only help big business and wealthy folks but not the common man or anyone that does not have the tax appetite.... churches, schools, homeless shelters, non-profits and government buildings are all shit out of luck and have to pay full price. Sucks for them. 'Big Solar' is just a tax loophole for the wealthy to dump $$ into similar to investing in land preservation or low income housing tax credits.

It is also a fun trick to get rich people to pay for things you couldn't get a government official elected to pay for. Things like land preservation, low income housing and solar panels..... LOL.

I just think it will be cool if I can spend 20k on a pv system and hopefully my kids will never have to buy electricity from the energy monopoly again. Sorry west Virginians but you can keep your coal and I will keep my $$ in NC.

Evergreen used to make PV here and solarhot makes solar-thermal panels down in durham I believe.

[u3b3rg33k]

Jesus what the hell are you doing in there~ the average is about 800-1000kwh per month for a house....

We have a farm & horses - during the drought we have to irrigate to avoid becoming our own private dustbowl.

[cale]

Out of curiosity, how fast (barrels / year) do they replenish? I have no idea, so I figured you might.

You don't know? Shocking considering how arrogant your responses are.

There is no "oil forms in X years" to go by, especially since there are different forms of usable oils. Ten thousand to one-hundred million years are mentioned, geology is the biggest factor.

Point is, it's not renewable. We use fossil fuels up in such large volumes that they could never possibly be sustainable, it's like having a bucket of water and you take a cup out every day but only put one drop back in. I get it, technically yes there are fuels fossilizing currently but it takes so long that they're production is irrelevant to our needs. Hence why I said they're going to die out, so politely go play on your farm and quit fishing for arguments on technicalities.

[gwb72tii]

so cale, why use tax payer money (mine) to help you buy your solar panels today, which are not cost competitive. why not wait until the costs of each equalize (solar coming down, fossil fuel going up)?
seems everyyear we hear about "peak oil" only to find out its not here yet. oil deposits have a funny way of replenishing themselves. new tech unlocks more and more oil. new tech has now found over 100yrs supply of nat gas in the USA alone, with more to come. oil may not be renewable, but its no where close to being exhausted. not by a long shot.
how about forgetting the subsidies for all energy?

[cale]

There are tons of reserves all over the globe, there are however fewer and fewer reserves which are accessible within reason. If you're fine with paying $50/litre for fuel I'm sure Exxon will be more than willing to find a way to drill in the middle of the ocean. 100 years seems like a lot but in reality that's not that far off, your grandchildren will be around to see shit drying up and then what?

Why should people who pay their share of taxes be forced to have their money go towards coal subsidies and not green energy ones? Is their dollar in the governments hand not as important as yours? Get off your high horse, it's not just your country.

They're not cost competitive now because people do not buy them. Do you think their cost is going to magically come down when they're no longer an option but a necessity? It takes research and investment now to bring their cost down, but look how quick you are to shoot down subsidies the government provides to those who use them now. Huge investments into infrastructures and grids are going to be necessary to make them the dominant energy source, yet you think it's something we're going to be able to efficiently switch to overnight.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[BraveUlysses]

Lets get gwb to calculate the costs he's paying into subsidizing solar panels on an annual basis.

I'll guess 6 cents.

[cale]

But it's my damned $0.06, ain't no liberal government gunna take it from me!

Oh hey look, 1000 posts.

[ficklerx]

If you really were green and wanted to save the earth.......

Check that reading comprehension. I said my only 'green' motivation was to save money, which is green. Not in the least concerned about AGW or if solar panels will slow the myth.

And since I qualify as one of the evil rich in most people's eyes, I will gladly accept the federal and state tax credits. Yes, I think I pay my fair share. I also gladly accepted the 30% tax credit for having closed-cell foam insulation installed in my attic spaces and end walls. It is all my hedge against increasing energy prices. I think prices will rise quicker with the latest negative pressure on nuclear power.

I agree that the industry is being propped up by the incentives. Or rather, the prices are being propped up by the incentives. Prices will drop when the incentives expire.

Until then I plan to capitalize on the incentives. They are not exclusive. You can do so as well. Just buy a house first.

[Fusion]

seems everyyear we hear about "peak oil" only to find out its not here yet

In elementary school and jr. high (~1995) we were taught that around 2002 sea levels would be so high, Florida, Cali, Texas and major parts of Europe would be mostly under water. Back then it was called being environmentally aware and we were told not to accidentally leave the light on after taking a dump.

[rwh11385]

why not wait until the costs of each equalize (solar coming down, fossil fuel going up)?

seems everyyear we hear about "peak oil" only to find out its not here yet. oil deposits have a funny way of replenishing themselves. new tech unlocks more and more oil. new tech has now found over 100yrs supply of nat gas in the USA alone, with more to come. oil may not be renewable, but its no where close to being exhausted. not by a long shot.

how about forgetting the subsidies for all energy?

Why not wait until computers were cost effective? Or space travel? Or just satellites at least? Or why pursue aviation? And why develop policies for television since it wasn't seen as a strong market reality? Why invest in computer networks when no one really understood their value yet? Why not hold onto whale oil until the last moment?? (How did you enjoy whale oil lamps?)

If the US waits for oil to spike, it will be uncompetitive with other nations with renewable energy and particularly with the military. Why wait until it is too late to develop sustainable energy that keep US businesses and government programs cost effective? Does it make sense to not being able to go to war if necessary because of the extreme costs of transported fuel?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/09/06/the-u-s-militarys-great-green-gamble-spurs-biofuel-startups/

The U.S. military, the nation’s single largest oil consumer, wants to wean itself from petroleum, and is deploying its immense buying power and authority to commercialize nascent technologies deemed to be in the national interest.

The Navy, which aims to get half of its energy from renewable sources by 2020, has been buying biofuels in small but expensive quantities, as in four times the cost of conventional fuels. Earlier this year the Pentagon invoked the Defense Production Act to solicit proposals to build at least one integrated biorefinery with $210 million in government funding. The biofuel buy has outraged some congressional Republicans, who are attempting to bar the military from purchasing any fuel that costs more than petroleum.

Apparently GOP in Congress want to keep things the way they are until we can no longer afford our military strength.

The oil has not been replenished, it's just now it is expensive enough to make dealing with oil sands profitable.

"The Stone Age did not end because humans ran out of stones."

Why don't people generally attack oil tax breaks when they go after green energy? Why not take on farm subsidies either? (Maybe it has to do with political affiliations of those industries...?)


Back to the costs of grid load and how on-site generation would help:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103545351

Transmission congestion, which occurs when there isn't enough energy to meet the demands of every customer, currently costs consumers in the eastern U.S. $16.5 billion annually in higher electricity prices. And the Electric Power Research Institute estimates that power interruptions and fluctuations cost the economy more than $100 billion each year in damages and lost business.

Do you like it when businesses cannot operate because they don't have power?

While demand for reliable electricity has increased in recent decades, investment in energy infrastructure has lagged. The American Society of Civil Engineers gave the energy system only a D+ in an annual report card, saying that rapid investment is a must.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90321&page=1#.UEkNnI1lQng

"We're a superpower with a Third World grid," said New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, who served as secretary of energy under President Clinton.

It's a message some energy experts have been trying to spread for years. But the largest power outage in U.S. history may finally spur action.

"Especially in the energy field, for change to occur, you usually have to have a crisis, like Love Canal or the Exxon Valdez. There's usually this kind of dramatic event that triggers a response," said Barry Rabe, a University of Michigan professor and environmental policy expert.

I know what you said, but can't believe you really want to wait for a crisis to act. Just seems stupid to do that.



With energy costs climbing and technology improving at Moore's law pace, it's only a matter of time. But do you really want the United States to be behind the times and built upon costly antiquated energy systems if the rest of the world will have already adopted new technology?

But maybe your plan of holding out until energy costs cripple the nation is a good idea if you want the country to lose its edge.

Reasoning like yours would have prevented us from investing in technology that brought us GPS and the internet. Would we be better off without those, to save some money from not investing in science?

[Q5Quint]

Solar is already hitting grid parity right now~



Solar is cheaper than 'conventional' sources, especially if you take into account that the only reason 'conventional' sources even work at all is the rural electrification public works programs that built the power lines... aka the first bailout...aka the TVA.... built all this infrastructure to move centralized power around. Well who the hell is going to keep paying for it?

Buy it once and be done with it.

Most developing countries are already doing this~ brazil and costa rica are above 85% renewable and mostly hydroelectric. Same way there are no phone lines in nicaragua... but there are cell towers... no or less infrastructure means less maintenance/upkeep cost.

We do a lot of cabins on remote mountains here... and the cost of running a power line more than a 1/4 mile means it is cheaper to just go off grid. Unless of course the tax payers decide to run the power line for you which is what usually happens ;-)

[gwb72tii]

Q5, did u know hydroelectric is not a renewable power source?

[gwb72tii]

Lets get gwb to calculate the costs he's paying into subsidizing solar panels on an annual basis.

I'll guess 6 cents.

.06 X 150,000,000 or so tax payers equals what brave?
why should anyone pay anyone else to buy a solar cell?

[herbivor]

.06 X 150,000,000 or so tax payers equals what brave?
why should anyone pay anyone else to buy a solar cell?

Why should I have to pay to clean up the environment from your car emissions? Fossil fuels are already subsidized by you and me way more than solar panels when you factor the cost of pollution. Though there may be some dispute on what the total costs are, there is no dispute that they exist and are currently a form of subsidy.