Another Stimulus-Backed Energy Company Files for Bankruptcy

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  • smooth
    E30 Mastermind
    • Apr 2005
    • 1940

    #16
    I can read perfectly well. Aside from that quote ignoring the rest of the article that reiterates everything I wrote, are you truthfully unaware that that single model is among other models because multiple analysts produce models while working out financial projections?

    You display a particular way of misreading content. In this article that you cited you ignored the rest of the content that reiterates what I wrote in my previous response. And like this article, you also chose to quote one sentence of mine while ignoring the next that stated:

    "It wouldn't have been difficult for anyone to see though just by knowing the most basic facts that here was a company developing around an expensive process and over the course of a couple of years of watching that expensive process trend downward in cost the consequences would or at least should have been clear to analysts."

    In case that was too difficult for you to understand or too long for your attention span, the shorter version is: any analysts can project that a manufacturing process is going to start losing money when that person looks out into the market and notices that the cost of a different production method is falling in cost.


    Originally posted by joshh
    Look at the dates of prices of silicon vs our giving 535 million to the company. Silicon was already falling. Plus the technology was very high risk from the start. Doesn't matter how you slice it high risk vs high risk at a bad time. We made a bad choice in giving them money when prices were already falling.
    I don't think you are naive enough to believe that silicon will always remain at it's current low prices.
    It appears clear to me that you are arguing this based from a political agenda and not on the merits of market realities or tech advances.

    This has nothing to do with risk. Our US company developed a more efficient, less expensive solar panel which should mean it is better on the market. China subsidized their companies so they could undercut ours and continue producing their less efficient, previously more expensive panels. If we don't play by the same rules we lose out and that's that. Then we continue using solar panels that don't produce adequate power for price. That might sound like a bargain in your mind but not to mine.

    The upshot of it is that when silicone goes back up in price after the competition quits subsidizing the raw materials, we have an alternative method to turn to. It'll be in about ten years when it matters but by then people like yourself won't be paying attention to the politics of it and the tech industry will pick up the slack. Unfortunately, the US companies will have long since been defunct so someplace more progressive like Ireland will run with the technology and be a decade ahead of us and sell us the panels that we developed and bore the brunt of the development costs. Great bargain for them, crappy for our citizens.

    Perhaps I'll be wrong. Perhaps it won't turn out like the rest of the mass consumed goods that we used to manufacture in this country. I'd very much like that but history doesn't indicate that to be likely.
    Last edited by smooth; 01-27-2012, 12:11 PM.
    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

    Comment

    • tjts1
      E30 Mastermind
      • May 2007
      • 1851

      #17
      Originally posted by joshh
      More trolling and failing.

      Comment

      • z31maniac
        I waste 90% of my day here and all I got was this stupid title
        • Dec 2007
        • 17566

        #18
        THe point is, they new even with the cash infusion the business would still fail.
        Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
        Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

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        Comment

        • smooth
          E30 Mastermind
          • Apr 2005
          • 1940

          #19
          Originally posted by z31maniac
          THe point is, they new even with the cash infusion the business would still fail.
          No, the point is the *reason* it will fail is because another country is willing to subsidize their companies and we will refuse to...not because the panels or the business were faulty (which is what you are trying to argue).

          We could do like other countries and subsidize our companies to the point where they can sell their stuff cheaper than it costs to produce. But we won't and so when we're dealing with a country that will, like China, we'll lose every time and continue to have to use products that are inefficient.

          The statement that private business always innovates is historically wrong. Private business stifles innovation and chokes competition in order to maintain whatever economic advantage it can retain. Only when forced does private business change, and that force has historically come through either direct public subsidy *or* indirect subsidy in the form of education subsidy.
          Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

          Comment

          • joshh
            R3V OG
            • Aug 2004
            • 6195

            #20
            Originally posted by smooth




            I don't think you are naive enough to believe that silicon will always remain at it's current low prices.
            It appears clear to me that you are arguing this based from a political agenda and not on the merits of market realities or tech advances.

            This has nothing to do with risk. Our US company developed a more efficient, less expensive solar panel which should mean it is better on the market. China subsidized their companies so they could undercut ours and continue producing their less efficient, previously more expensive panels. If we don't play by the same rules we lose out and that's that. Then we continue using solar panels that don't produce adequate power for price. That might sound like a bargain in your mind but not to mine.

            The upshot of it is that when silicone goes back up in price after the competition quits subsidizing the raw materials, we have an alternative method to turn to. It'll be in about ten years when it matters but by then people like yourself won't be paying attention to the politics of it and the tech industry will pick up the slack. Unfortunately, the US companies will have long since been defunct so someplace more progressive like Ireland will run with the technology and be a decade ahead of us and sell us the panels that we developed and bore the brunt of the development costs. Great bargain for them, crappy for our citizens.

            Perhaps I'll be wrong. Perhaps it won't turn out like the rest of the mass consumed goods that we used to manufacture in this country. I'd very much like that but history doesn't indicate that to be likely.


            Manufacturers and analysts have different ideas about when silicon prices will ease, with some projecting lower costs in the third quarter while others expecting the wait will be longer.
            Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

            "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

            ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

            Comment

            • smooth
              E30 Mastermind
              • Apr 2005
              • 1940

              #21
              It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion with you two when you post links, don't provide any information of your own, and apparently don't even read the sources that you are googling.

              For everyone else, the article he just posted states that in 2008 everyone was unsure of whether silicon would go up or down in price. Some companies though the pricing might level out (not continue to increase) but even they noted that once they started large production runs their demand would quickly exceed demand (apparently joshh doesn't understand that would mean silicon prices would then go up so I'll connect those dots for him). He'll have to explain to us how that article supports what he's been typing here or maybe he's changed his opinion more in line with what I've been writing. I don't know, it's hard to understand his logic on this.


              cliff notes:
              2008 article saying: silicon prices will either go up or they'l go down. no one knows, but even if they go down we'll make lots of stuff with it and prices will go up. therefore, end result, long term future projection is silicon will eventually be higher than today.

              Solyndra says ok we'll make something that doesn't depend on it.

              2010, uh oh, China doesn't like that. Silicon prices *are* going up, Soyndra has a viable model, economy slumps, silicon prices plummet, China floats their companies, Solyndra can't compete with them without our government stepping in. We try, conservatives shit themselves, China keeps pumping money into their industry. We pull plug. end.
              Last edited by smooth; 01-27-2012, 12:28 PM.
              Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

              Comment

              • joshh
                R3V OG
                • Aug 2004
                • 6195

                #22
                Originally posted by smooth
                It's difficult to have an intelligent discussion with you two when you post links, don't provide any information of your own, and apparently don't even read the sources that you are googling.

                For everyone else, the article he just posted states that in 2008 everyone was unsure of whether silicon would go up or down in price. Some companies though the pricing might level out (not continue to increase) but even they noted that once they started large production runs their demand would quickly exceed demand (apparently joshh doesn't understand that would mean silicon prices would then go up so I'll connect those dots for him). He'll have to explain to us how that article supports what he's been typing here or maybe he's changed his opinion more in line with what I've been writing. I don't know, it's hard to understand his logic on this.
                For everyone else, they knew prices were going to fall. And even speculated they had already started. Mid 2008.....
                Keep grasping at straws....
                Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

                "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

                ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

                Comment

                • smooth
                  E30 Mastermind
                  • Apr 2005
                  • 1940

                  #23
                  Originally posted by joshh
                  For everyone else, they knew prices were going to fall. And even speculated they had already started. Mid 2008.....
                  Keep grasping at straws....
                  Next time read past the headline. This is in the 2th paragraph of the article you posted:
                  Companies have different ideas about when significant easing of the shortage will begin, or if it already has begun. And the evidence points everywhere.
                  Glad you have such a clear vision of what was going to occur in 2009...now that it's 2012.
                  Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

                  Comment

                  • joshh
                    R3V OG
                    • Aug 2004
                    • 6195

                    #24
                    Originally posted by smooth
                    Next time read past the headline. This is in the 2th paragraph of the article you posted:


                    Glad you have such a clear vision of what was going to occur in 2009...now that it's 2012.
                    Now factor in risk which you want to ignore...bad idea to give this company money. Plain and simple. They knew a huge flow of supply was going to hit just not exactly when.
                    Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

                    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

                    ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

                    Comment

                    • smooth
                      E30 Mastermind
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 1940

                      #25
                      So ignoring Solyndra, you believe that the current generation of solar panels produced are efficient forms of alternative energy?

                      Is your argument that we don't need to develop alternate ways of producing solar panels?
                      Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

                      Comment

                      • joshh
                        R3V OG
                        • Aug 2004
                        • 6195

                        #26
                        Originally posted by smooth
                        So ignoring Solyndra, you believe that the current generation of solar panels produced are efficient forms of alternative energy?

                        Is your argument that we don't need to develop alternate ways of producing solar panels?
                        Not with public money.
                        Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

                        "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

                        ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

                        Comment

                        • Morrison
                          E30 Addict
                          • May 2006
                          • 430

                          #27
                          Without public money we would not have Tempurpedic beds and GPS's. I'm just saying, sometimes we get some pretty cool stuff for our money.
                          "I think we consider too much the good luck of the early bird and not enough the bad luck of the early worm."
                          -Franklin D. Roosevelt

                          Comment

                          • joshh
                            R3V OG
                            • Aug 2004
                            • 6195

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Morrison
                            Without public money we would not have Tempurpedic beds and GPS's. I'm just saying, sometimes we get some pretty cool stuff for our money.
                            Agreed but at what cost? NASA specifically has made many inventions but that was also a specific program for going into space. Yet we've thrown billions upon billions at it. It's the amounts and the waste that goes along with it that I have a problem with. I wish there was a way to calculate all the inventions from government vs cost per invention.
                            Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

                            "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the [federal] government." ~ James Madison

                            ‎"If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen" Barack Obama

                            Comment

                            • smooth
                              E30 Mastermind
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 1940

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Morrison
                              Without public money we would not have Tempurpedic beds and GPS's. I'm just saying, sometimes we get some pretty cool stuff for our money.
                              We *always* get cool stuff for our money. The difference is that most of the time private companies retain the patents and profit from it.
                              The public subsidizes research, whether it be private or government. When the research doesn't turn profitable it becomes a taxpayer problem but when it becomes profitable private business reaps the rewards. I'm not sure why anyone would think that's a good way to conduct finances, other than private businesses that can off-load risk to the public, but it's baffling otherwise.

                              I'd be interested to see the private inventions joshh believes have been invented solely from private industry. Here's an interesting list from the NASA space program he believes has been a waste of billions of dollars:

                              1. Invisible braces
                              2. Scratch resistant lenses
                              3. Memory foam
                              4. Ear Thermometer
                              5. Shoe insoles
                              6. Long distance communications
                              7. Adjustable smoke detector
                              8. Safety grooving (grooves in the road)
                              9. Cordless tools
                              10. Water filters

                              http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic...inventions.htm

                              Similar to the list above, your list Morrison, is represented in the market by private business even though the public subsidized the cost and risk of investment and development. For some reason he doesn't have a problem with that but you'd have to ask him to explain.
                              Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!

                              Comment

                              • gwb72tii
                                No R3VLimiter
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 3864

                                #30
                                you either believe in capitalism, or you don't
                                the government has no business investing directly in individual companies at the exclusion of others, period, emphasis added. if the government wants to do something productive, which is debatable, if can subsidize research only. grant money for research that seeks to develop a commercially viable solar panel that sells on its own without any government support, THAT HAS TO BE REPAID PLUS INTEREST. this is so much bullshit. you're all arguing over the details of a company on the verge of bankruptcy without realizing the money shouldn't be given in the first place regardless of solyndra's financial position or whether china is subsidizing silicon.
                                government has no place in trying to pick winners and losers, which it is doing by granting money directly to solyndra. and whose to say that solar is the way to energy independence and the exclusion of any other technology, currently known or unknown?

                                anyone here care to tell me the breakeven point financially for a wind power tower? how many years does one take to pay for itself?
                                Last edited by gwb72tii; 01-27-2012, 07:47 PM. Reason: cause i can't spell
                                “There is nothing government can give you that it hasn’t taken from you in the first place”
                                Sir Winston Churchill

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