Pisses me off: Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 (H.R. 4170)

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  • rwh11385
    lance_entities
    • Oct 2003
    • 18403

    #46
    The news always focuses on the OWS people and their outrageous amount of loans... but what about most people?
    Student loan debt is generally less burdensome than reports of dramatic cases indicate, an economist writes.


    only three-tenths of 1 percent of bachelor’s degree recipients, accumulate more than $100,000 in undergraduate student debt. If you have more than $75,000 in undergraduate debt, you are the 1 percent


    among recipients of bachelor’s degrees, 90 percent manage to graduate with less than $40,000 of debt. What happened to the other 10 percent is no particular mystery: they are less likely to come from wealthy families, but they attended pricier schools and paid for more years of tuition (see chart below). Compared with other graduates, these students are 20 percentage points more likely to have attended schools costing $20,000 or more a year (including room and board), and 20 percentage points less likely to have attended a public institution. Ten percent attended a private for-profit institution, compared with only 1 percent of their lesser-borrowing peers. High-borrowing students also took significantly longer to finish their degrees.

    Comment

    • Thizzelle
      R3V Elite
      • Oct 2008
      • 4422

      #47
      percentage wise it doesn't look like much but it's still a lot of people. 1 person can equal 5+ peoples debt
      "I wanna see da boat movie"
      "I got a tree on my house"

      Comment

      • rwh11385
        lance_entities
        • Oct 2003
        • 18403

        #48
        Originally posted by Thizzelle
        percentage wise it doesn't look like much but it's still a lot of people. 1 person can equal 5+ peoples debt
        Yeah, but why the hell should taxpayers help to cover some kids personal debt that they signed up for when going to an expensive private university and spent more than 4 years there?

        The majority of students don't acquire absurd levels of debt and invest it towards an education that will provide a career that will allow them to pay back their loans.

        Comment

        • Massimo
          No R3VLimiter
          • Jan 2008
          • 3207

          #49
          Originally posted by rwh11385
          Actually, based on the number of people who feel like their life is like Office Space and some people end up enjoying building things than writing TPS reports, yes. There is an empty feeling for many people who are bored in cubicles and selling insurance or whatnot, and people burnt out and want to do something productive. Some are going back to organic farming, or building Lego sculptures, or crafting furniture. Some people may be vastly happier in their lives if they worked in high-tech manufacturing at a niche facility that had them make cool things and didn't have the yawn environment of a typical corporate cube farm. Of course, if they had some practical skill or technical ability, they also have the ability to do much more than simply learning history and writing papers... and can be entrepreneurs and create jobs. (Not just complain about not having one) Obviously not buying their own CNC machine necessarily, but people who can fabricate can produce more than just "start-up" ideas.

          But more importantly, I think people shouldn't take out loans to study East African studies, or anything "studies". Humanities and other visual arts have high unemployment and low salaries, which makes repaying loans more challenging / less likely. Either people can react to market realities and make better choices or at least take responsibility for them, or only offer loans to STEM majors... but people wouldn't like that, right? The nation needs more STEM and skilled factory workers, yet have a surplus of "studies" and art history majors. It's inefficient.

          If their parents are loaded and they want to blow their money, so be it. That's their parent's problems and fortunately not the taxpayer's.

          But we really ought to stop subsidizing student loan debt, mortgage debt, etc. If it makes financial sense to buy something, don't encourage people to go into debt to do so.

          More people ought to be working throughout college if they don't think they can afford their student loans. I don't care if you study underwater basketweaving and really want to work for Longerberger if you pay your way through and don't look to the government for a bailout. But studying something you KNOW doesn't lead to a good career, building massive debt, and then acting surprised and entitled to a better life... not good for America.
          I like this.

          I think we are having a similar problem here. I have 5 friends who are studying to become teachers. Firstly they are under paid everyone knows that, secondly there is too many of them. 2 of my friends have moved to out back Australia for jobs.

          I remember when I finished high school I did not even think about job availability and went and did something I thought was cool. So I studied Mechanical Drafting at a tertiary collage. After a year and a half I dropped out, mostly because I could not find a job and did not want to waste more time and money on something that will not get me anywhere.

          Fortunately I got a job as a Civil Drafter, because of who I know. My tertiary cost are only a few grand but am happy that I did not go to Collage/University because I would be in massive debt, and not necessarily doing something I like.
          The whole idea of going straight to collage after high school is ridiculous. You have no idea how the real world works and what a career is like. If I could do it again I would probably try work experience for a few years maybe half time so the other half I can work at McDonalds to make money. This would give me the knowledge I need to make a good decision on what I would like to go to college for.

          Having someone pay for your schooling means you learnt nothing at collage and will fail in your career. Good luck if you want to be an entrepreneur. Just like everything else in the world people don't have pride in anything anymore. Kids want stuff for free and don't care that it shows they are lazy.

          In my line of work it is very obvious. Gone are the days when you would take pride in your presentation of your technical drawings, and making sure everything was correct. All that matters now is how quickly can it be done.

          So summing up, very few take pride in anything anymore period. Most people just expect respect.
          sigpic

          Comment

          • evandael
            R3VLimited
            • Oct 2009
            • 2881

            #50
            do they spell college differently in upsidedownland?


            i disagree with the idea that loans should only be used for technical-based educations. the humanities are very important. however, these people should pay their loans back. graduated loan adjustment plans are fine, but the government (read: you and I) shouldn't have to front someone's less than economically-savvy career path.


            i'm majoring in a bachelor of fine arts in integrative arts w/ a minor in architectural studies. so go ahead. skewer me. i made less than savory decisions with my education in terms of career placement. i have my doubts, regrets, and debts. but i will graduate early, eventually get a job that i love and my student loans will be paid off and the rest of you can suck a dick if you find my path to be problematic to your idealized view of what 'youth should be doing'.
            Last edited by evandael; 04-02-2012, 07:04 PM.

            Comment

            • Massimo
              No R3VLimiter
              • Jan 2008
              • 3207

              #51
              Actually is it university here we done use the word collage. That is word processor spell check lol.
              sigpic

              Comment

              • HarryPotter
                No R3VLimiter
                • Jan 2010
                • 3642

                #52
                Why is are the liberals never talking about how greedy the schools and education system is? Why is it always big business?



                Must be the birth control pills.


                "Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

                John F. Kennedy

                Comment

                • rwh11385
                  lance_entities
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 18403

                  #53
                  Originally posted by HarryPotter
                  Why is are the liberals never talking about how greedy the schools and education system is? Why is it always big business?



                  Must be the birth control pills.
                  Are you a OWS supporter or something?

                  I think that reasonable people wouldn't focus on big greedy schools, since the US has a great system of public and land grant institutions... and "greed" doesn't really accurately describe research-based universities. It's completely up to the student to decide if they want to go to state school or a private institution.

                  And as mentioned previously, 50 elite schools have no-student loan policies for low income students...

                  Comment

                  • HarryPotter
                    No R3VLimiter
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 3642

                    #54
                    Originally posted by rwh11385
                    Are you a OWS supporter or something?

                    I think that reasonable people wouldn't focus on big greedy schools, since the US has a great system of public and land grant institutions... and "greed" doesn't really accurately describe research-based universities. It's completely up to the student to decide if they want to go to state school or a private institution.

                    And as mentioned previously, 50 elite schools have no-student loan policies for low income students...
                    I was being sarcastic.


                    "Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed."

                    John F. Kennedy

                    Comment

                    • chucker
                      Advanced Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 106

                      #55
                      " 8 years of college down the drain ".
                      89 M3 "Ms. Bavaria" Garage Queen Cinnabar w/ black guts
                      12 Chevy Avalanche "OJ" Black on Black and.... Loaded

                      Comment

                      • Ryan Stewart
                        I Love Miatas
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 8978

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Grand525
                        Says the guy who died a multi-millionaire....
                        Im now E30less.
                        sigpic

                        Comment

                        • rwh11385
                          lance_entities
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 18403

                          #57
                          Originally posted by FredK
                          I agree with you that it's a bad idea.

                          Allow me to digress. College is an institution of higher learning. For most college students in the US, it is at an age where you begin to find yourself, socially and intellectually. I'm not going to deny there are people steeped with a sense of entitlement post-graduation, but it really stretches across the whole spectrum of majors and concentrations. Sure, as a whole, young people are idealistic and narcissistic. That is the stupidity of youth, and a bit of misguided parenting thrown into the mix.

                          I used to think, "liberal arts majors LOL." But as I've grown older I've softened my stance. Not everyone is right brain dominant. Sure it's hard to monetize the skills as a left brainer, but don't force a square peg into a round hole. Are you suggesting that these people should learn CNC programming instead of East African studies?
                          Ironically, with all these history majors, you'd think we would learn from it:


                          "As a result, pupils in state schools now lag well behind their European opposites in standards of literacy and numeracy. What's more, further up the educational ladder, we are nowhere near equalling the European, American and Asian output of graduate engineers and technologists. Too many British university students are wasting time on so- called 'rice pudding' topics (soft and easy to digest) such as media studies, rather than studying tougher subjects such as maths, physics, chemistry and engineering."

                          "In the 19th and 20th centuries, Britain calamitously failed to educate and train the nation to meet the threat from European, American and Japanese competitors.

                          Well, we know how that battle turned out. Today, Britain faces a new threat from the fast-expanding industries of China, India and, for that matter, Brazil.

                          If we fail to equip ourselves with even better skills than these new competitors, how will 60 million people crammed in this small island ever stand the chance to survive and prosper?"
                          China and India are certainly educating themselves with the technical knowledge needed for innovation and economic growth. Why are we having our children follow the ill-fated history of the British?

                          But at least they are moving away from university (esp. liberal arts) for ALL!


                          Originally posted by Massimo
                          ....So I studied Mechanical Drafting at a tertiary collage. ... Fortunately I got a job as a Civil Drafter, because of who I know. My tertiary cost are only a few grand but am happy that I did not go to Collage/University because I would be in massive debt, and not necessarily doing something I like.


                          "Over three-quarters of industry employers regard the vocational learning route as equal or preferable to a higher education when preparing people for successful careers." "In particular, the sectors of UK industry that most favour Apprenticeships over degrees include: engineering and manufacturing, logistics, environmental services, and energy and utilities."

                          “I really hope young people are encouraged to seriously consider Apprenticeships as a highly-regarded career pathway and equal to a degree – not to mention allowing them to earn a wage while gaining skills and experience and avoiding the debt associated with the university route."

                          “Industry Apprenticeships are vitally important in tackling skills shortages, in engineering and manufacturing for example, as well as helping to reduce youth unemployment. Business leaders have been warning Government that serious effort is needed to ensure appropriate technical training for young people is available. This is necessary to develop the advanced level skills that are most critical for industry growth, as well as a route to further learning. The fact that businesses regard Apprenticeships as an important pathway to develop their workforce is great news for learners.”
                          Hopefully we can grow and develop technical and vocational training programs, as well as increase apprenticeships in the US. My university has a good school of technology that offers AS and BS degrees, with more digestible math and science technical courses and focus on "hands-on" instead of theory.

                          Comment

                          • MAXELHOFF
                            E30 Addict
                            • Jan 2008
                            • 414

                            #58
                            1/4 th

                            FYI-
                            "The tuition paid by in-state students covers only about one-fourth of the total cost of their education in the University System. Therefore, Georgia taxpayers are contributing three-fourths of the necessary funds to provide quality education for the citizens of the state." 2nd paragraph in this link. http://www.catalog.gatech.edu/financ...sification.php
                            grain of salt:p


                            http://https://youtu.be/H8gOAzYchAE:ot:

                            Comment

                            • rwh11385
                              lance_entities
                              • Oct 2003
                              • 18403

                              #59
                              Originally posted by smooth
                              In this case, and someone pointed this out to you in another thread, the liberal degrees you think are worthless, like singing, dancing, and creative writing are fine arts degrees. Liberal arts degrees are what psychologists, social workers, history teachers, english teachers, economists, criminologists, and a general 4 year degree all fall within career paths that we need in our society. They also don't tend to pay very well.

                              So if you want people something to complain about then focus attention on slashing state budgets, expansion of corrections budgets, shifting state higher education budget from taxpayers to students, and terrible salaries for primary education teachers and other socially oriented careers in the most disadvantaged communities as reasons for why a significant portion of really necessary degrees are going up in cost without commensurate growth in salaries.
                              I'm well aware of the difference in liberal arts vs. fine arts. And if they don't pay well, and for many suffer high unemployment rates, people shouldn't be spending a ton on those degrees at expensive private schools.

                              As long as there is a huge oversupply of these degrees, why would salaries rise? Salaries for in-demand fields are ticking up, as demand increases. If people worry about their ROI, they ought to consider how their choices impact their ability to repay loans and either choose what they like to do but is also compensated what they need, or find ways to cheap their education - like scholarships, work study, the military, part-time jobs, internships, etc.

                              Simply crying after the fact that they don't have a job in a field that has an oversupply of graduates or wishing they didn't take out so many loans after the fact is not helpful. There's plenty of data and information through NACE and BLS to give people an informed perspective of their future and what to expect.

                              Comment

                              • rwh11385
                                lance_entities
                                • Oct 2003
                                • 18403

                                #60
                                Originally posted by smooth
                                You're misstating the facts.

                                This is aimed at students going to public, state schools not private schools.
                                Salaries for those in-demand jobs are *not* ticking up.

                                Many of the budgets that pay for those jobs are being frozen and their benefits are being slashed. I'm not sure you understand what you're talking about. Where do you see social workers' and teachers' salaries going up? Criminologists who go work in prisons and jails have salaries that are going up, but at great expense to tax payers. You're all messed up on your facts.
                                I don't think you can read.

                                People with huge student loans are more likely to be going to expensive private schools. And the news like to focus on fine art and humanities grad students from NYU complaining about their six-figure loan debt, which is laughable.

                                I didn't say that social workers and teachers salaries are going up, but talked about in demand fields and majors are ticking up as new employees are needed. (And have higher salaries too because of demand and the skills required) You don't care to look at any facts and base everything on opinion coming from your heart.

                                http://www.accountingweb.com/topic/e...salaries-50000
                                accounting majors earned an average of $50,500, which is up 3.7 percent from the class of 2010,
                                Graduates in 2011 did slightly better across the board than their 2010 counterparts, as starting salaries rose 2.3 percent. Computer science grads saw the greatest percentage change from 2010, at 4.1 percent; starting salaries averaged $60,594. Topping all graduates were new engineers, earning $61,872 as their starting salary average.

                                The top five industries that paid the highest starting salaries to 2011 bachelor's degree graduates were:
                                Securities, commodities, funds, trusts, and other financial investments
                                Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution
                                Non-depository credit and related activities
                                Computer systems design and related services
                                Business support services

                                Of the reported engineering majors in this issue,
                                computer engineering majors saw the biggest increase:
                                Their average salary is up 2.5 percent from $68,700
                                to $70,400.

                                Heck, even social services and education are actually up... but their bases are much lower... because of supply and replaceability:
                                among the individual disciplines in this category, social
                                work majors got the biggest increase—3.9 percent;
                                their average salary now stands at $34,900.
                                The average salary for education majors rose a modest 2.1 percent to $37,830.

                                None of the differences in average starting salaries should be a shock, and given the known costs of college, people should have been able to calculate their ROI, even without majoring in math or accounting.

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