Pisses me off: Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 (H.R. 4170)

[z31maniac]

this bill doesn't pay them more. it just extends the 3.5% interest rate that has been in place since 2007 and forgives the loans of people who are making under 150% of the poverty line and work in public service for five years instead of ten.

YOu keep bringing paying them livable wages and their RIGHT to own a house and car, etc.

How's about you pick on argument at a time?

Because $30k a year is enough to live on.

[rwh11385]

http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml

"During any 17-year period from 1958 to 2001, the average annual tuition inflation rate was between 6% and 9%, ranging from 1.2 times general inflation to 2.1 times general inflation. On average, tuition tends to increase about 8% per year. An 8% college inflation rate means that the cost of college doubles every nine years. "


I realize that info is dated, but it's not too far off current rates.

Since when is tuition the ONLY element of college cost???

And that quote does not seem to specify if just state or public, versus inclusion of privates. I've certainly not seen my tuition double.

edit: Now that I actually open it and look at the data, using this long-run information is completely irrelevant. Even at a quick glance you should notice that it averages in outliers of 1980-1983 which were 12%, 13.95%, 14.35%, 9.75%. Those are combined are double what we were used to seeing between 91-07.



The long-term average was 8%, but was above 8% for much of the 70s and 80s. Only between 1992 and 2007 did it hover between 4.5% and 6%. 1991 had 7.6% and 2007 had 6.3%. Certainly compared to those figures, 8% in one year seems a lot, but we have seen much greater increases before and just got used to ~5%. But it is no where close to what was seen during the early 80s recessions of after.

[z31maniac]

the reason that came into the discussion is because he lamented the state of our education system compared to the rest of the world

whether 30,000 is enough to live on (I'm sure you're aware that 30K goes a lot further in OK than California) is irrelevant to the fact that $30,000 is poverty for a family of four.

If you can't afford kids, you shouldn't be having them.

[z31maniac]

Since when is tuition the ONLY element of college cost???

And that quote does not seem to specify if just state or public, versus inclusion of privates. I've certainly not seen my tuition double.

It's not, but it's the biggest.

SO because your college tuition hasn't increased that much, it's not relevant if anyone else's have?

When I started at OSU a credit hour (not including the fees, which they keep adding and increasing the cost of) was right $90/hr. It's now $145ish with add in fees and OSU (a public institution no less) has nearly doubled in cost in the last 12 years.

Rent from 2000-2005 increased, and rents are still even higher there now.



THe main point is you guys refuse to admit there is a middle ground.

[z31maniac]

I don't understand your non-sequitor

I don't understand your insistence that a fresh college graduate will be supporting a family of four.

[dinanm3atl]

It was said on the first page but somewhere down the line the whole 'you have to go to college' thing started. I graduated in 02 from HS. I wanted to go to a tech school and move into the car world. My counseler straight up told me you 'have to go to college'. Well I did that for one year. Not for me. I went to trade/tech school. Graduated with straight A's.

Fast Forward to today I have built race cars, worked in indy shops and now I have been in the same position at BMW Aftermarket company for 6 years. I am the General Manager at this place. A motorsports photographer(teams, print and online as clients) and own my own local small business with a friend.

So no... didn't 'have to go to college'. So those that might be better suited to be a highly trained and skilled trade/tech person are herded like sheep to go to school. So they get degrees that are worthless. Can't get a job that pays 6 figures right out of school. Now want a car, house and benefits. Get upset. Want help paying for the school that was worthless to them.

It's sad.

[rwh11385]

now look at his next argument. he asks since when does tuition comprise the total cost of an education. doesn't he realize that would mean the actual cost of education has *more* than doubled if the tuition alone has effectively doubled? like I said, he's just arguing with anything and doesn't even really understand his own point. it's not me who can't stick to one point, it's him flailing at any piece of information that challenges his belief that any legislation that Obama passes is bad regardless of how closely it matches another similar piece of legislature that he stated he agrees with or even if he has to argue against basic common sense.

I was going to ask if you even went to college, but now I doubt if you could even graduate from HS with your math abilities.

If cost of college = tuition (X) + living expenses (Y), and if you assume that tuition has doubled (has not), and living expenses have not, then look at this simple equation...

2X + Y is NOT >= 2(X+Y)
hence, even if you assume that college tuition has doubled, that does not mean that college costs have doubled if tuition is not the sole element of college cost.

[Swanny]

Whatever happened to living in your parents basement?

[rwh11385]

It's not, but it's the biggest.

SO because your college tuition hasn't increased that much, it's not relevant if anyone else's have?

When I started at OSU a credit hour (not including the fees, which they keep adding and increasing the cost of) was right $90/hr. It's now $145ish with add in fees and OSU (a public institution no less) has nearly doubled in cost in the last 12 years.

Rent from 2000-2005 increased, and rents are still even higher there now.



THe main point is you guys refuse to admit there is a middle ground.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying believing bullshit from someone who lacks the ability or effort to find information to support his claims is dumb. Nor is listening to someone who lacks basic math comprehension.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/28/pf/college/college_tuition/index.htm

Over the past decade, public school tuition has risen at an annual rate of 5.6%

If you take that over 10 years of compounding, that is not double. Neither is $145/90 = 2. If you want to willy nilly go about rounding up, why not round up $37K to $50K? It's the same amount of rounding.

Has rent DOUBLED there? Have food prices DOUBLED? Have books DOUBLED?

My school, is even above average in the article but not double. And room and board is up about 60%, books about the same %, etc. All combined, it's much closer to a 50% increase than double. Yes, that is more than inflation but not double overall cost.

I simply stand for legitimate facts and analysis, not just making shit up for the fun of it, or to support opinions with misconceptions and falsehoods.

[z31maniac]

people get out of grad school and either have a family or are starting one. I don't know what you mean by fresh out of college, but you exit with a master's degree around age 25. If you have any sense about you you'll pick a career option that will eventually support a family (if you want one, some people don't). I posted earlier that the jobs that are under discussion are primarily public sector, state jobs and their wages have been frozen for the past ten years due to budget constraints.

so if you're fresh out of college, as you put it, then you can either go get a job at 37,000 dollars but you can't support a family on it. you aren't going to be making $50,000 dollars in five or even ten years. the current trend is you'll be making the same $40,000 dollars.

Wow, can afford school and to start a family while going to school, but can't afford them once your out.


Enjoy your debate gentlemen.

[z31maniac]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying believing bullshit from someone who lacks the ability or effort to find information to support his claims is dumb. Nor is listening to someone who lacks basic math comprehension.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/28/pf/college/college_tuition/index.htm

If you take that over 10 years of compounding, that is not double. Neither is $145/90 = 2. If you want to willy nilly go about rounding up, why not round up $37K to $50K? It's the same amount of rounding.

Has rent DOUBLED there? Have food prices DOUBLED? Have books DOUBLED?

My school, is even above average in the article but not double. And room and board is up about 60%, books about the same %, etc. All combined, it's much closer to a 50% increase than double. Yes, that is more than inflation but not double overall cost.

I simply stand for legitimate facts and analysis, not just making shit up for the fun of it, or to support opinions with misconceptions and falsehoods.

Go back and read what I said earlier, those per hour figures are without fees. THen I said, even if it hasn't doubled, it's dramatically higher.

You are missing the big picture in favor of arguing the minutia.

But I'm sure even saying that will bring about more of pretentious BS.

[rwh11385]

your calculations are bizarre and your conclusion is incorrect

before your ninja edit

it's strange you insult my intelligence when you post something as insane as this

and fyi, I have a doctorate in criminology, law and society and average pay for academic positions are between 46K (oregon) and 60K (california) on the west coast. working at RAND is six figures.

No they are not. At least at my public school, tuition is about 40% of the total cost for in-staters.

If tuition doubled and all other costs stay the same, then the cost of college would be 40% more, not more than double.

he asks since when does tuition comprise the total cost of an education. doesn't he realize that would mean the actual cost of education has *more* than doubled if the tuition alone has effectively doubled?

For your statement to be true, then the other expenses of college would have to more than double to make total college costs more than double if tuition only doubled.

Basic middle school math.

[rwh11385]

Go back and read what I said earlier, those per hour figures are without fees. THen I said, even if it hasn't doubled, it's dramatically higher.

You are missing the big picture in favor of arguing the minutia.

But I'm sure even saying that will bring about more of pretentious BS.

So you would rather have wrong information presented than worrying about the details?

The middle ground is that costs have increased, but not double and his point was exaggerated as all his other points are.

What you actually pay:
Nationwide, the median cost of tuition and fees is $9,418. But two-thirds of undergraduates get federal grant aid that helps soften the blow. On average, grant aid rose $1,100 from last year, thanks to boosts in Pell Grants and Veterans' benefits.

Students at four-year public institutions received an average $6,100 in grant aid and federal tax benefits for 2010-11.

Arguing about college list price and wanting to make it cheaper ignores the fact that there are already programs to make it affordable for those who cannot. Those without fin aid available can still work part-time and intern and earn merit-based scholarships.

[rwh11385]

he provided data up until 2001. I was referencing the cost of tuition in the last ten years.

even with my rudimentary math skills I believe that would be referring to the years 2001 to 2011.

Your rudimentary math skills leave you short when it comes to understanding how this is false, unless the other living expenses more than doubled:

he asks since when does tuition comprise the total cost of an education. doesn't he realize that would mean the actual cost of education has *more* than doubled if the tuition alone has effectively doubled?

And I provided data for the last ten years, and it wasn't double. It increased by a factor of 37K/50K. If you want to call that double, then it is just as valid to say that 50K = 37K. But then again, rounding like that is stupid and insane.

[rwh11385]

so you can either use common sense and figure if tuition was already doubling in 2001 what has it been doing since 2001 (going up or going down)? or you can go look it up. you've been complaining about me not providing any data but in the past few hours you haven't posted anything to refute my claim. given your tenacity one can safely assume that if there was data disproving my claim you'd have posted it by now.

So because he quoted a rate of increase up to 2001 (from the 1950s), we should use "common sense" and assume that it increased at the same rate since then??

Makes a lot of sense if you are lazy.

I actually posted an article that gave the average annual percentage increase in tuition at public universities. Once again, you fail to be able to read.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/28/pf/college/college_tuition/index.htm

Over the past decade, public school tuition has risen at an annual rate of 5.6%

If you take that over 10 years of compounding, that is not double. Neither is $145/90 = 2. If you want to willy nilly go about rounding up, why not round up $37K to $50K? It's the same amount of rounding.

Has rent DOUBLED there? Have food prices DOUBLED? Have books DOUBLED?

My school, is even above average in the article but not double. And room and board is up about 60%, books about the same %, etc. All combined, it's much closer to a 50% increase than double. Yes, that is more than inflation but not double overall cost.

I simply stand for legitimate facts and analysis, not just making shit up for the fun of it, or to support opinions with misconceptions and falsehoods.