Pisses me off: Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 (H.R. 4170)

[z31maniac]

If you really think that all corporations are evil and will destroy the earth, don't buy from them at all. Shop with credit unions, co-ops, and non-profits. Eventually, consumers and their choices will influence the other companies to act.

Look at Bank of America and how they got reamed by their policies and a flood of people to local banks and credit unions. Buy from customer-owned businesses. Buy from local energy cooperatives who only use their US-produced oil to make gas and deliver good customer service.

Just assuming that every company in the world is evil and has no soul is kinda dark and depressing. Why assume you have no ability to influence that?


In my case, I'll continue to support businesses who innovate and also give back as well as recycle, service their old products, and support some cause that is important to them. But maybe I'm an optimist.

Because if he admits there is a choice, then he has to make the right one.

;)

[FredK]

But studying something you KNOW doesn't lead to a good career, building massive debt, and then acting surprised and entitled to a better life... not good for America.

Well, entitlement is a common attribute among young folks these days--even in engineering and science. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that liberal arts majors have a monopoly on it. I honestly think it's worse in engineering majors, that somehow, by studying around 18 in-major classes, they now know enough to command a healthy salary.

[rwh11385]

Well, entitlement is a common attribute among young folks these days--even in engineering and science. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that liberal arts majors have a monopoly on it. I honestly think it's worse in engineering majors, that somehow, by studying around 18 in-major classes, they now know enough to command a healthy salary.

I think that feeling one is entitled a job even if they don't have skills companies need is vastly differently and worse than have an exaggerated impression of the value of skills and knowledge that a company wants. The market place is strong for engineers, and they ought to be able to find average starting salaries, etc. (And some are a bit twisted to thinking everyone will make the $90K some oil people do)

But it's not just engineers that acquire skills that lead to jobs. Accounting, Logistics, and IT are also in high demand. Education also has low unemployment, and obviously health fields. Even communication's unemployment is reasonable, given all the social media buzz. They all might try to negotiate or have misconceptions on how much they are worth to companies, but are needed or desired. And students chose to pursue majors with attached careers.

On the other hand... arts, humanities, and social science have low demand and aren't even in the door to talk about value. They do not have strongly aligned career prospects. Being shocked that they don't magically result in one shouldn't happen, nor should people get mad at anyone else but themselves in that case.

[joshh]

The precise reason liberals give as a reason for Americans to have free College education. So they can pay (more) taxes (via the larger salary)...then we give them another freebie.

[tjts1]

Pisses me off: Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 (H.R. 4170)

Cry me a river

[rwh11385]

Cry me a river

Are you advocating FOR the bill?

[tjts1]

Now where the fuck did you read 'liberal arts loan forgiveness'?

OFFICIAL BILL SUMMARY
The following summary was written by the Congressional Research Service, a nonpartisan arm of the Library of Congress, which serves Congress. GovTrack did not write and has no control over these summaries.

3/8/2012--Introduced.
Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012 - Amends title IV (Student Assistance) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 to establish a 10/10 Loan Repayment Plan that allows borrowers of Federal Family Education Loans (FFELs) and Direct Loans (DLs) to limit their monthly payment on such loans to one-twelfth of 10% of the amount by which their adjusted gross income and that of their spouse (if applicable) exceeds 150% of the federal poverty level. Requires the Secretary of Education to determine a borrower's repayment obligation under that plan on a case-by-case basis if the repayment formula would result in the borrower paying nothing and the borrower is not in deferment due to an economic hardship. Establishes a 10/10 Loan Forgiveness Program that provides FFEL and DL forgiveness to borrowers who, after the date that is 10 years before the date of this Act's enactment, have made 120 monthly payments under the 10/10 Loan Repayment Plan or under another repayment plan that required them to make payments at least as large as those they would have made under the 10/10 Loan Repayment Plan. Credits the months during which an individual is in deferment due to an economic hardship as months for which payment was made for purposes of the 10/10 Loan Forgiveness Program. Caps the amount of loan forgiveness that the program will provide to individuals who become new borrowers after this Act's enactment. Caps the interest rate on new DLs at 3.4% Amends the public service employee loan forgiveness program to forgive the DLs of participants who have made 60 (currently, 120) monthly payments on such loans pursuant to specified repayment plans. Includes primary care physicians in medically underserved areas in the public service employee loan forgiveness program. Allows certain borrowers to consolidate their private education loans as Direct Consolidation Loans, provided the private loans were made on or before the date of this Act's enactment. Limits such borrowers to those who: (1) were students eligible for unsubsidized Stafford loans or PLUS loans under the FFEL or DL programs for their enrollment at an institution of higher education, or would have been had they been enrolled on at least a half-time basis; (2) borrowed at least one private education loan for such enrollment; and (3) have an average adjusted gross income that does not exceed their total education debt. Caps the interest rate on those Direct Consolidation Loans at 3.4% Requires borrowers to apply for such loans within one year of this Act's enactment. Funds this Act's programs from funds available for Overseas Contingency Operations.

[rwh11385]

Now where the fuck did you read 'liberal arts loan forgiveness'?

It doesn't, but many of the supporters I know are liberal arts kids. (although the retarded http://studentloanjustice.org/ guy was an AAE) The 'movement' for the government to pay off student loans is strong about kids who went to NYU for grad school and studied ____ "studies".

It's socialist and removes personal responsibility, and disregards that these students signed a piece of paper that stated they understood they would have to repay these loans and they could not be waived even through bankruptcy. They also chose what to major in, knowing the demand and average salary. Their financial situation was their own decision and the American taxpayer shouldn't pay for it.

[rwh11385]

The bill takes from responsible winners (taxpayers who had found success, whatever educational choices) and subsidizes the (often wasted) educations of others.

I fully support equal opportunity to access to education. There are 50 elite institutions with no-tuition programs for low income students. There are community colleges, work-study programs (how my mom afforded it), military programs (how grandfather paid for college), and public service forgiveness already existing. Army or Navy will pay off $65k of college debt!

I see many people who support this as making poor choices, not always peforming as best as possible, and certainly not being concerned with affordability until the bill was due. I have friends with $100k in loan debt but paying it off at a good pace because they invested in out of state or private engineering educations. The average student may have $25k in loans but that is manageable if they major in somethinng with good careers and salaries. My less well off when they grew up friends all focused on education enabling their success, not as a holiday or eduvacation.

We've created a college bubble, while not having enough 'hard' major skilled workers or technical skilled tradesmen, and subsidized debt. Encouraging this further would be disasterous to the nation's future. It is anti-market and will
make more inefficiences.

[rightcoastbias]

The fact that this bill has gained the critical mass to reach the floor is shocking to me for two reasons. The first is the entitlement mentality of the supporters; regardless of the degree attained (or not attained). My interpretation is the request for absolving of debt due to the inability to make payments is entitlement. The second is the acknowledgement of the current cost of tuition. If loan forgiveness is by any means acceptable, then it calls the valuation of tuition into question.

This aggravates me further considering my college experience. I am staunchly against loans and have no debt. Starting out I did not have the money to pay for tuition and my high school grades were not sufficient to qualify me for substantial financial aid. So, I worked full time while attending a community college pursuing a two year transfer track and attained a 3.7 GPA. During this time I saved enough money to pay for one semester of my chosen university. Unfortunately, this caused my income to disqualify me for need based financial aid. When I transferred to a university full-time, I busted ass to get a 4.0 GPA and interviewed for multiple coop positions. Since then I have alternated attendance by paid internship one semester to be to able pay for tuition the following. As a result, I have a great relationship with multiple companies with job offers contingent on graduation. Boy am I doing it wrong.

This is not an arts vs science debate. This concerns people being responsible for their actions from enrollment to post-graduation.

[Sagaris]

i graduated with $25k in student loan debt and then i put it on the extended plan to lower my payment since i didn't have a job out of college. Except for a $10/hr temp gig.

My payment is $120/month. maybe the kiddies should give up their iphones and pay their damn debt.

yes!

[cale]

You guys down there definitely have a difference attitude for post secondary than we Canadians do, or at least I experienced. I went to an American school for middle school and my first high school year and it was already being jammed down my throat to start thinking hard about not what I wanted to be, not if I wanted to go to college/Uni but what I'd be taking. It's thrown at kids that without college you'll be a failure, and that with it you'll see success. This IMO leads to so many building debt going to school simply for the sake of going, the fear of the unknown. University should be a tool to achieve a goal, a specific one. Spending 10k a year to "find yourself" is absurd.

And I definitely do not support this, just to clarify.

[rwh11385]

You guys down there definitely have a difference attitude for post secondary than we Canadians do, or at least I experienced. I went to an American school for middle school and my first high school year and it was already being jammed down my throat to start thinking hard about not what I wanted to be, not if I wanted to go to college/Uni but what I'd be taking. It's thrown at kids that without college you'll be a failure, and that with it you'll see success. This IMO leads to so many building debt going to school simply for the sake of going, the fear of the unknown. University should be a tool to achieve a goal, a specific one. Spending 10k a year to "find yourself" is absurd.

And I definitely do not support this, just to clarify.

Yup man, and don't Canadians have a more encouraging view of apprenticeship and trade? (not just EVERYONE GO TO COLLEGE!)

[rwh11385]

http://chronicle.com/article/Tuning-...ng-Out/130967/ - Good article

Subsidizing education ought to fund the educations that produce economic growth, not unemployed or underemployed citizens.

Over the past 25 years, the total number of students in college has increased by about 50 percent. But the number of students graduating with degrees in STEM subjects has remained more or less constant.

In 2009 the United States graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math, and chemical engineering combined and more than double the number of visual-and-performing-arts graduates in 1985.

There is nothing wrong with the arts, psychology, and journalism, but graduates in these fields have lower wages and are less likely to find work in their fields than graduates in science and math. Moreover, more than half of all humanities graduates end up in jobs that don't require college degrees, and those graduates don't get a big income boost from having gone to college.

Most important, graduates in the arts, psychology, and journalism are less likely to create the kinds of innovations that drive economic growth. Economic growth is not the only goal of higher education, but it is one of the main reasons taxpayers subsidize higher education through direct government college support, as well as loans, scholarships, and grants. The potential wage gains for college graduates is reason enough for students to pursue a college education. We add subsidies to the mix, however, because we believe that education has positive spillover benefits for society. One of the biggest of those benefits is the increase in innovation that highly educated workers theoretically bring to the economy.

Thus, an argument can be made for subsidizing students in fields with potentially large spillovers, such as microbiology, chemical engineering, and computer science. But there is little justification for subsidizing sociology, dance, and English majors.

America's one path focus misses out compared to other countries:

The U.S. college dropout rate is about 40 percent, the highest college dropout rate in the industrialized world.

College dropouts are telling us that college is not for everyone. Neither is high school. In the 21st century, an astounding 25 percent of American men do not graduate from high school. A big part of the problem is that the United States has paved a single road to knowledge, the road through the classroom. "Sit down, stay quiet, and absorb. Do this for 12 to 16 years,"

There are many roads to an education.

Consider those offered in Europe. In Germany, 97 percent of students graduate from high school, but only a third of these students go on to college. In the United States, we graduate fewer students from high school, but nearly two-thirds of those we graduate go to college. So are German students poorly educated? Not at all.

Instead of college, German students enter training and apprenticeship programs—many of which begin during high school. By the time they finish, they have had a far better practical education than most American students—equivalent to an American technical degree—and, as a result, they have an easier time entering the work force. Similarly, in Austria, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, between 40 to 70 percent of students opt for an educational program that combines classroom and workplace learning.

In the United States, "vocational" programs are often thought of as programs for at-risk students, but that's because they are taught in high schools with little connection to real workplaces. European programs are typically rigorous because the training is paid for by employers who consider apprentices an important part of their current and future work force. Apprentices are therefore given high-skill technical training that combines theory with practice—and the students are paid! Moreover, instead of isolating teenagers in their own counterculture, apprentice programs introduce teenagers to the adult world and the skills, attitudes, and practices that make for a successful career.

^In regards to Cale's post, American education seems very one-dimensional compared to other industrialized nations.

"Elites frown upon apprenticeship programs because they think college is the way to create a "well-rounded citizenry." So take a look at the students in Finland, Sweden, or Germany. Are they not "well rounded"?"

Are 'well-rounded' students protesting in parks productive for society, compared to vocationally trained workers? I did vocational training in HS on top of the AP courses and learned a lot. I think that removing the stigma about skilled trades in America will do it a lot of good, especially with the wave of boomer retirees in such fields.

[Grand525]

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