Veganism: Is it morally wrong to eat/kill animals?

[evandael]

happy turkey day everybody!

i won't be eating any meat today. unless of course it looks really tasty, then maybe, just maybe, i'll consider it.

[mrsleeve]

yes ALL of our modern domestic cats can trace their linage back to the Several cat, the African wild cat, The Asian Leopard Cat ( Modern Domestic Bengal Cats are only 1-4 generations removed from the Asian Leopard) along with many many more smaller species of Wild cats from around the world.

The little woman was researching and we considered getting a F3 Savanna Cat (cross between a Domestic and a Several Cat) or a pure bread early generation Bengal, a while back. This is why I know this kind of cat information off hand lol.

[rwh11385]

I meant his suggested transitions - specifically. I'm fully aware that animals have been domesticated - but lions/tigers to housecats?

Can never be too sure around here...

I'd assume he'd back it up with data if they weren't commonly accepted and general knowledge relationships, since he does so in the GW thread.

Here's a published scientific summary of domestic animals and their wild ancestors, with pretty much the same thing he wrote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...2791/table/T1/

Grey wolf [C lupus] -> Dog aka Canis familaris
Wild boar [Sus scrofia] -> Pig aka Sus domesticus
African wild ass -> donkey
Wildcat [F. silvestris lybica] -> Cat aka F. silverstris catus

It appears this is the wild direct relative of the modern domestic car:

http://www.felidaefund.org/education/african-asian_wildcat_.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/06/070628-cat-ancestor.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6251434.stm

But the family tree isn't too far off.



Distant relative of lions, tigers, ocelots, and cheetahs... but the wildcat is what was domesticated. Likely this particular species because it was what was around Eqypt. [areas of population in pictures below, although not hotlinked]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...68952508001078

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0168952508001078-gr3.jpg

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0168952508001078-gr2.jpg

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0168952508001078-gr4.jpg

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0168952508001078-gr5.jpg

[Turf1600]

I meant his suggested transitions - specifically. I'm fully aware that animals have been domesticated - but lions/tigers to housecats?

[rwh11385]

Do you have any proof to back any of this up?

You mean proof of the concept that man domesticated livestock and pets from wild animals??

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/33/11597.full
Domestication and early agriculture in the Mediterranean Basin: Origins, diffusion, and impact

The initial steps toward plant and animal domestication in the Eastern Mediterranean can now be pushed back to the 12th millennium cal B.P. Evidence for herd management and crop cultivation appears at least 1,000 years earlier than the morphological changes traditionally used to document domestication.

The transition from foraging and hunting to farming and herding is a significant threshold in human history.

The past decade has seen remarkable analytical advances in documenting domestication (1), particularly in tracking the domestication of four major Near Eastern livestock species (sheep, goats, cattle, and pigs) and their subsequent dispersal throughout the Mediterranean Basin.

Based on this size reduction criterion, the established consensus was that animal domestication (beginning with goats and then sheep) occurred at ca. 10,000–9,500 B.P.

http://www-leca.ujf-grenoble.fr/membres/fichiersPdf/taberlet/taberlet_Fernandez_2005_FirstStepsAnimalDomestication.pdf

Science book providing summary: http://samples.jbpub.com/97807637629...27_W01_W18.pdf

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item5708379/?site_locale=en_GB

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2702791/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11323670

http://www.cabi.org/animalscience/Uploads/File/AnimalScience/additionalFiles/WPSA2_files/bruford.pdf

http://www2.umt.edu/flbs/People/Luikart~3422/PDFs/Bruford2003NatRevGen.LivestockOriginsDomestication.pdf

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120327124243.htm

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.long

[Farbin Kaiber]

Sowie. Would you like me to send you a BOGO coupon to White Castle to make up for it?

[slammin.e28]

Came here to post that, lol.

[Farbin Kaiber]

[Turf1600]

We have been genetically modifying these things to be 'easy' for a long, long time.
Buffalo-->Cow
Quail-->Chicken
boar-->pig
Wolf-->Dog
Lion/Tiger-->cat?
horses? camels? goats? Sheep?

Do you have any proof to back any of this up?

[Q5Quint]

My favorite way to initiate people into my club is to make them kill a chicken.

If you hang out around chickens for about 5 minutes you will realize that they are amazingly stupid feathery lizards that have been bred over centuries to be easy to catch, kill, and convert bugs from your food scraps into eggs with little-to-no maintenance.

Wild birds and game are very different from domesticated animals since they can still run/hide/ kind of defend themselves.

We have been genetically modifying these things to be 'easy' for a long, long time.
Buffalo-->Cow
Quail-->Chicken
boar-->pig
Wolf-->Dog
Lion/Tiger-->cat?
horses? camels? goats? Sheep?

and the not-so-modified game
Fox
Weasel
Beaver
deer
elk
squirrel
rabbit
bear


We have also been doing the same thing to plants for.... well... a long time.

So moral/ethically.... the human race has been 'converting' other living things around us to better suit our needs pretty directly. Natural evolution takes millions of years for species to 'adapt' to new climates but we selectively breed specific traits at a much faster rate. Naturally all of us and these animals sort of evolved to meet certain needs of the environment and everything balanced out... but now we are breeding potential imbalances into the system.

When I see a 'plum/apple' or 'tangelo' hybrid at the store I still say 'wtf'. When I hear about glowing monkeys, roundup ready corn, and 4 breasted chickens I start to wonder. We are playing God at an alarmingly fast rate, and I think the morals behind that are more interesting than the 'kill things with eyes' vegetarianism thing.

I intended to write this about how I don't feel bad about eating a chicken because it is so dumb, but eating a kitty might be bad since it is a smart critter....and then realized that chickens might not have always been so dumb... wild turkey vs not wild turkey.

If we reversed humanity to the paleo-diet before we started selectively breeding all this stuff to be 'easy' I wonder what the ethics behind eating animals would have been.... possibly 'thank the gods for sending this stupid deer too close to my spear' or 'damn this wild boar is eating all my wild taters, lets hit him on the head with a stick and then cook him WITH THE TATERS.' Ah, the good ole days before we genetically modified the boar into a fat tasty meat-cube.

[Turf1600]

Fwiw I'm a vegetarian. When I had to put my cat down I took extra care and spent good money to make sure she passed comfortably. I later found it ironic that I consume animals that not only die terribly but live a horrible life. At the end of the day I have to live myself and I don't fancy myself a hypocrite.

[Thizzelle]

Where can I obtain that T-shirt?

Seriously, though. I don't give a shit if people eat meat. I think if you are going to eat it, you need to have the balls to kill it and clean it yourself. If you don't, you don't deserve the right to eat meat.

A relative of mine is an avid hunter. He hunts for deer in upper MD and feeds the meat to the homeless in Baltimore. I think that is admirable. I personally do not like killing animals and therefore do not consume meat, or feel that I have the right to eat meat, since I am not willing to kill.

From your enemy Fusion

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=227707

[rwh11385]

Seriously, though. I don't give a shit if people eat meat.

And that's why you aren't douchey.

[herbivor]

Fishes? Bugs? Mushrooms?

No to fishes or bugs, though if I were living completely independent of modern food industry, I would likely resort to fishes and bugs out of necessity. Mushrooms on the other hand I would murder with delight in the wild with my bare hands and have no moral qualms about doing so. We can't have them overpopulating our forests.

[Q5Quint]

I watched Jeremiah Johnson last night... hence the reference. Actual scene with girl took place last summer. I will be growing my beard out in hopes of increasing my natural hunting and homesteading abilities.

*ninja edit: "or feel that I have the right to eat meat, since I am not willing to kill."

Fishes? Bugs? Mushrooms?