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    High speed trains...

    Bascially I was having a little chat with Inufaye about HS rail vs flying.

    Started with this:

    http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...erg/54736508/1

    Airlines are a racket, but everyone seems to want to keep high speed rail suppressed, with only one, by definition high speed line in the North East.

    I know it's a Wiki, but this is a pretty good read about HS rail in the US, and what has been keeping it from taking foot (not just a bad economy, but that is part of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-sp..._United_States

    Discuss.

    What would it take to get some high speed rail? NY to SF would take about 24 hours. That's at 185mph and allows time for stops. I'm okay with that. I hate flying. I rode the TGV from Paris to Bordeaux and it was fantastic. Very easy to get on, organized, much better than flying, especially flying in America.
    1974.5 Jensen Healey : 2003 330i/5 : 2007 335i/6

    #2
    High speed rail is a NOTORIOUS money loser.

    Only two lines in the entire world are profitable. And the gov't would screw up the ease of train travel just like they have with air travel.
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      #3
      Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
      High speed rail is a NOTORIOUS money loser.

      Only two lines in the entire world are profitable. And the gov't would screw up the ease of train travel just like they have with air travel.
      This
      Originally posted by Fusion
      If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
      The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


      The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

      Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
      William Pitt-

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        #4
        Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
        High speed rail is a NOTORIOUS money loser.

        Only two lines in the entire world are profitable. And the gov't would screw up the ease of train travel just like they have with air travel.
        Well, rail is also the only transit system that people seem to expect to operate unsubsidized. Make no mistake, highway and air travel is also heavily subsidized. It's just done differently.
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          #5
          Originally posted by nrubenstein View Post
          Well, rail is also the only transit system that people seem to expect to operate unsubsidized. Make no mistake, highway and air travel is also heavily subsidized. It's just done differently.
          This
          sigpic

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            #6
            Yes Amtrak has been OH so profitable.

            How about the had to have it train line in portland iirc that had more coyotes riding on it than people.
            Originally posted by Fusion
            If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
            The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


            The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

            Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
            William Pitt-

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              #7
              Originally posted by nrubenstein View Post
              Well, rail is also the only transit system that people seem to expect to operate unsubsidized. Make no mistake, highway and air travel is also heavily subsidized. It's just done differently.
              Originally posted by herbivor View Post
              This
              Yes, highways are paid for by the gasoline tax. A use tax. (Even though this tax needs to be raised to reflect the cost of maintaining our infrastructure).

              Rail and air travel get paid for by everyone, even those who don't use it.

              That's what I'm against. Why should the rest of the country subsidize my vacation flights?
              Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
              Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

              www.gutenparts.com
              One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

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                #8
                Originally posted by slammin.e28 View Post
                What would it take to get some high speed rail? NY to SF would take about 24 hours. That's at 185mph and allows time for stops. I'm okay with that. I hate flying. I rode the TGV from Paris to Bordeaux and it was fantastic. Very easy to get on, organized, much better than flying, especially flying in America.
                A cross-country HSR would be impossibly expensive to build. HSR is only economical compared to regional flights, ie - Northeastern Corridor.

                In any event, I'm a fan of HSR. I haven't seen any analysis that looks at cost of subsidies versus overall economic and environmental impact, but I would assume that the overall benefit of HSR, even taking into account a subsidy, makes more sense than air or road travel.

                And, our gasoline is insanely low priced. It's not a strict subsidy, but let's call a spade a spade. Oil companies park profits offshore, destroy the natural environment, and get generous tax breaks all over the place. I consulted for a few some years back and they were ridiculous!
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                  #9
                  ^

                  Our fuel is not low cost while there is a pile of taxes built into its pricing matrix before you get to pay retail taxes on it, its just not taxed as much as the rest of the world.

                  So lets call a spade a spade here with the fact that even in this country the Feds make more money on Big oil than big oil does
                  Last edited by mrsleeve; 05-15-2013, 06:23 AM.
                  Originally posted by Fusion
                  If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                  The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                  The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                  Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                  William Pitt-

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                    Yes Amtrak has been OH so profitable.

                    How about the had to have it train line in portland iirc that had more coyotes riding on it than people.
                    Amtrak would be profitable if it was a business that was allowed to shut down unprofitable service. You know, like the USPS.
                    2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD LBZ/Allison
                    2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
                    1999 323i GTS2 Alpinweiß
                    1995 M3 Dakargelb/Black
                    - S50B32/S6S420G/3.91
                    1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
                    1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black

                    Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo Black/Black
                    Hers: 1988 325iX Coupe Diamantschwartz/Black 5spd

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                      #11
                      ^

                      No dissagreement with that here. But then interstate rail service would be limited the NE and maybe some of the comuter routes around chicago into WI and MI but even then that would be a big if. So argumets for further rail devopment would flounder even more as it woud never pay for itsef either way
                      Originally posted by Fusion
                      If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                      The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                      The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                      Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                      William Pitt-

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by nrubenstein View Post
                        Amtrak would be profitable if it was a business that was allowed to shut down unprofitable service. You know, like the USPS.
                        Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                        ^
                        So argumets for further rail devopment would flounder even more as it woud never pay for itsef either way
                        nrubenstein, how do you not get this?
                        Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
                        Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

                        www.gutenparts.com
                        One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I thought we tried the train thing once- had a bunch of chinamen building railroads across the country etc..... why did all that go away?

                          I think railroads are a great idea- but in todays distribution model utilizing highways, trucks, and busses I am not sure rails would win even if they were cheaper.

                          What are you moving? If it is people connecting the population centers makes sense. If it is goods then connecting ports and production centers makes sense. The thing is once you get off the train station you will still need to rent a car...

                          I can go from Charlotte NC to new york city for $107 bucks-
                          Thats 10-12 hours in a car or about 13 on the train (the traffic around DC is the hold up). $ wise it would be about the same in gas, but I don't have to worry about my car exploding on the train.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by mrsleeve View Post
                            ...even in this country the Feds make more money on Big oil than big oil does
                            I'm not sure about this. The gasoline tax is not linked to inflation. This means, in real terms, that they collect less than they did last year, the year before, 10 years ago, etc.
                            Last edited by einhander; 05-16-2013, 02:14 AM.
                            2011 1M Alpine white/black
                            1996 Civic white/black
                            1988 M3 lachs/black

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                              #15
                              ^

                              Big oil remits a lot more money in taxes at nearly all stages of production to the feds and other more local govts than just the retail fuel taxes we pay at the pump.


                              IIRC 82-2007 the Oil and Gas industry Remitted in total to all forms of govts here in the states (in all forms of taxes, fees, permits, royalties ect) 2.2 trillion dollars which is 3 times their net profits for the same period of time. Like I said the feds make more on oil than Big oil does
                              Last edited by mrsleeve; 05-16-2013, 05:17 PM.
                              Originally posted by Fusion
                              If a car is the epitome of freedom, than an electric car is house arrest with your wife titty fucking your next door neighbor.
                              The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. -Alexis de Tocqueville


                              The Desire to Save Humanity is Always a False Front for the Urge to Rule it- H. L. Mencken

                              Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
                              William Pitt-

                              Comment

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