Spike in gun deaths after BG checks eliminated

[agent]

"Because many perpetrators of homicide have backgrounds that would prohibit them from possessing firearms under federal law, they seek out private dealers to acquire their weapons," said study author Jon Vernick, JD,

Assuming "private dealers" means "off the books," more control/regulation of firearm ownership will do precisely nothing to quell this trend.

[mrsleeve]

What the fuck is a "private dealer" anyway

[BraveUlysses]

I believe they are referring to anyone who sells a gun as a private party sale.

[mrsleeve]

Lets see how many holes can be poked in darins fire arms ideology in just 1 2 page thread.

It's not rocket science. The easier/cheaper it is to obtain something, the more people will obtain it. Hence why background checks are so important for reducing gun violence; make it harder for those who aren't allowed to have guns to get one, and (surprise) they'll have fewer guns.

All retail and gun show firearms purchases still must undergo a background check and perspective buyrs still must fill out a form 4470...........................

All this did was elimiante the provision that you had to get a pemission slip from your local constabulary to aquire a hand gun in addition to the federal requirments.................

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Really, if you make guns harder to get, less law abiding citizens will go through the steps to procure said item, but criminals will continue procuring a tool they assume is required for their "career", then, more criminals with guns, and less "marks" without firearms. Sounds like a vicious circle similar to the welfare merry-go-round.

This makes ZERO sense at all. You're saying that a background check makes it harder for LAW-ABIDING citizens to get a gun and will therefor make them purchase fewer of them, but it has ZERO effect on criminals and will make no changes to their habits at all? I don't know if you could get it any more backwards? :shrug:

FACTS of the matter farb is 100% correct. The national firearms act of 1934 banned the possession of Short barreled rifles and shot guns suppressors, Select fire weapons, machine guns military explosives and other crew served heavy weapons for citizen possession. UNLESS there was a large amount of paper work submitted to the feds (the BATFE) a long wait for said paper work to clear the back ground checks and phone interviews. and a rather large TAX to be paid to the feds. NOW if you live in a state that does not out right ban NFA items you can go though those steps you can own any one of those things.

For this comparison we shall use say a SBR, because there is little difference in cost compared to a standard length counterpart on the hardware side of it other than the tax stamp form the feds which in todays respect is not going to make or break a decent quality weapons sale. . Many many people would like to own said weapon, I know lots of them but most will NOT go through hassle of JUMPING THOUGH ALL THE HOOPS to get the permission slip to do so. Not only that you cant go to just got to any dealer to acquire this type of weapon you have to go a dealer that is authorized to sell them. I waited 11 months before calling to inquire on the status of my from 4 for my suppressor. They could not locate it an now I have to resubmit it all and still wait another 6-8 months to get a item you can buy from the hardware store in the Scandinavian countries and many other gun commie countries throughout the world

Criminal is gonna criminal.............. I would say that if your a criminal your going to know and associate with other criminals. I would also be willing to bet a weeks pay that one of those criminals is going to know where to acquire a throw away weapon stolen or otherwise.

Here we have it folks, we should only consider laws that aren't time consuming for people like farbin.

Despite you handwaving this away because you shall not be impeded with difficult things like paperwork and visiting a police office (oh the hugemanitee), this excerpt of the study doesn't really jive with your notion that people buying stolen guns aren't affected.

Gun owners love the idea that the government doesn't get to know anything about the chain of custody is for a weapon after it is sold at a dealer.

And so do criminals.

1 protected constitutional right, how about you go fill out paper work and visit the constables office to get a permission slip to use your rights to free speech, or buy a printer for you computer or get a new pen and a ream of paper...

2 Why dose to govt get to know what I do with my privately owned property, or when, where or whom I chose to sell it too, on the slight chance someone might do harm with it. Are we going to start requiring such paper work and provisions when I sell tools like hammers, or power saws, hard pipe or cutting tools, how about sporting goods like base ball bats, golf clubs or boxing gloves too then????

3 You selling a weapon to a person you suspect or know might be planing on using it for some kind of nefarious purpose, or know are out right barred for ownership is also already illegal. Why is it you assume anyone that owns a firearm is a unconscionable fool that does not consider the person in which they are selling the weapon to??? That and most peer to peer firearms sales are from a current gun owner to another current owner.

4 Why should the govt get to know what I own, are you willing to open up to them and let them in on what you lawfully own.

I think we should consider laws that dont punish the law abiding, but do punish those that dont follow the law.

I believe they are referring to anyone who sells a gun as a private party sale.

So because I sold a hunting rifle and old shot gun to my neighbor a while back that makes me a gun dealer then ????? NO I didnt think so.


Shall we keep playing this game

[einhander]

Opinion time - not fact based - warning:

Not sure what is more scary....people willing to jump through all of the hoops and hurdles to own a gun or the ones who just go out and get one, rules be damned.

[mrsleeve]

You really should seek out a good shrink for treatment of your Hoplophobia

[einhander]

Sorry, but I think people are inherently bad and should be severely limited from having the ability to blow each other away.

Also, I disagree with the continued comparison of guns to hammers as instruments of death and destruction.

[CorvallisBMW]

So mrsleeve agrees that excesive hurdles/paperwork/red tape makes it harder to/less likely to own a weapon, hence his NFA example. But he also says that criminals will simply go around the rules to get what they want.

Tell me mrsleeve, when was the last time any criminal robbed, murdered or otherwise committed a crime with an RPG? Plastic explosives? rocket launcher? I didn't think so.

By your own argument you've proven that strict regulations keep weapons out of the hands of criminals.

[mrsleeve]

Well considering those were never put into private circulation, under NFA rules there for none are available on the private market your point is moot at best.

Why use C4 when there is plenty of other household goods and pressure cookers available at walmart to do the same job???

Regulation of an enumerated right via erroneous and excessive bureaucratic red tape to the point of determent of exercising said right is .................................. Say it with me now!!!!!


INFRINGEMENT..................................... What does the second amendment to the the highest law in the land say????

say this with me


SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CorvallisBMW]

You sure seem to know a lot about how to buy illegal guns and make bombs. Maybe the ATF is listening in?

[z31maniac]

Just sounds like those people that say:

"Well you know, if we allow those gay people to marry, next thing you know the deviants will be marrying their sisters, animals, where will it stop?!?!?!?!?!"

[BraveUlysses]

Just sounds like those people that say:

"Well you know, if we allow those gay people to marry, next thing you know the deviants will be marrying their sisters, animals, where will it stop?!?!?!?!?!"

Every discussion about firearms laws turns into a slippery slope fallacy with sleeve.

1 protected constitutional right, how about you go fill out paper work and visit the constables office to get a permission slip to use your rights to free speech, or buy a printer for you computer or get a new pen and a ream of paper...

The rights provided by the bill of rights are not unlimited.

2 Why dose to govt get to know what I do with my privately owned property, or when, where or whom I chose to sell it too, on the slight chance someone might do harm with it. Are we going to start requiring such paper work and provisions when I sell tools like hammers, or power saws, hard pipe or cutting tools, how about sporting goods like base ball bats, golf clubs or boxing gloves too then????

Slippery slope fallacy, derp.

3 You selling a weapon to a person you suspect or know might be planing on using it for some kind of nefarious purpose, or know are out right barred for ownership is also already illegal. Why is it you assume anyone that owns a firearm is a unconscionable fool that does not consider the person in which they are selling the weapon to??? That and most peer to peer firearms sales are from a current gun owner to another current owner.

It's the "knowingly" part that gives people too much leeway and yes this is abused by people who sell guns private party. Don't ask, don't tell!

4 Why should the govt get to know what I own, are you willing to open up to them and let them in on what you lawfully own.

I'm not afraid of the government knowing that I have a few guns because I'm not a pu$$y.

So because I sold a hunting rifle and old shot gun to my neighbor a while back that makes me a gun dealer then ????? NO I didnt think so.

I didn't create the definition, don't get your panties in a bunch.

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I've said it before: I was selling my AR15 in mid-2013 and required buyers to prove they have passed a background check--you wouldn't believe how many people clammed up or stopped communicating with me once I told them that.

They might not be criminals but to me if you're unwilling to prove you are legally allowed to own a firearm--there is a reason they're buying private party and that is to avoid such hurdles.

[Thizzelle]

no.

I didn't mean harder, i meant more arduous. And, you are wrong, it would be more time consuming for me to procure a firearm via the system of bureaucracy than the other method.

agree, i want a gun but doing all the time consuming shit is putting me off. Also all the regulations on aftermarket parts i can put on it.
It would be easier for me to buy from said shady person. Yes i know people that can produce results and they arn't shady, well maybe a little but known them for ever and they arn't going to screw me over for $100 or so.

[sumoashe]

So where exactly do you guys thinks illegal guns come from? Do manufacturers decide that todays production will go to the legal market and tomorrows goes to the illegal one?

All guns start of being purchased by so called responsible buyers, then somewhere along the way they stop giving a fuck and it ends up in the illegal market. Yeah, a small percentage are due to theft, but most are simply sold by the original owner. I go with my dad to a dozen gun shows a year in general. He's a dealer. And at every single one I see guys doing "straw purchases". I.e. selling without following due process of filing paperwork and doing the wait period. Hell, they don't even hide it, doing it right on the show floor. And 99% of the people there just look the other way, real responsible. This is a major way that guns end up on the illegal market. The other is people just selling to their "neighbor", or who ever else shows up with cash in hand. These are the same people that cling to the 2nd amendment, using it as a shield and an excuse for their lack of personal responsibility. Which is a total farce. Personal responsibility goes beyond your trigger finger. The excuse of "well I didn't pull the trigger, I just sold the gun" doesn't fly if you didn't take the time to check the guy out. These are guns, not toys. And they deserve the respect that entails.

I'm all for someone purchasing a firearm if they want one. But if your gonna bitch that the paperwork is to difficult, then you don't deserve one. Because obviously your not mature enough to handle one. If you wanna keep the gov out of gun control, then actually use personal responsibility and police it yourself. Otherwise shut up, if you did your duty as a responsible citizen then they wouldn't have to do it for you. Personal responsibility extends beyond your front door. If you see a crime it's your responsibility to report it. If you sell a gun it's your responsibility to make sure it's not going to someone who shouldn't have it. Bad shit happens cause good people do nothing.

Rant over.

[CorvallisBMW]

So where exactly do you guys thinks illegal guns come from? Do manufacturers decide that todays production will go to the legal market and tomorrows goes to the illegal one?

All guns start of being purchased by so called responsible buyers, then somewhere along the way they stop giving a fuck and it ends up in the illegal market. Yeah, a small percentage are due to theft, but most are simply sold by the original owner. I go with my dad to a dozen gun shows a year in general. He's a dealer. And at every single one I see guys doing "straw purchases". I.e. selling without following due process of filing paperwork and doing the wait period. Hell, they don't even hide it, doing it right on the show floor. And 99% of the people there just look the other way, real responsible. This is a major way that guns end up on the illegal market. The other is people just selling to their "neighbor", or who ever else shows up with cash in hand. These are the same people that cling to the 2nd amendment, using it as a shield and an excuse for their lack of personal responsibility. Which is a total farce. Personal responsibility goes beyond your trigger finger. The excuse of "well I didn't pull the trigger, I just sold the gun" doesn't fly if you didn't take the time to check the guy out. These are guns, not toys. And they deserve the respect that entails.

I'm all for someone purchasing a firearm if they want one. But if your gonna bitch that the paperwork is to difficult, then you don't deserve one. Because obviously your not mature enough to handle one. If you wanna keep the gov out of gun control, then actually use personal responsibility and police it yourself. Otherwise shut up, if you did your duty as a responsible citizen then they wouldn't have to do it for you. Personal responsibility extends beyond your front door. If you see a crime it's your responsibility to report it. If you sell a gun it's your responsibility to make sure it's not going to someone who shouldn't have it. Bad shit happens cause good people do nothing.

Rant over.

Quoted for fucking truth. Thank you, at least some people have the intelligence to understand this subject beyond "herp derp i luv teh gunz n imma kill u if u disagree"