Another thing Sleeve and I probably agree on...

[einhander]

This whole fiasco in Nevada with Cliven Bundy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/14/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-idUSBREA3B03Q20140414

Not that I agree with not paying taxes for his cattle grazing on public land, but stealing the man's livelihood and attempting to deprive him of the means to pay what he owes called for a protest like this.

I'm a little freaked out by the number of "militiamen" running about, but I'm pleased that they were able to get the government to handle this correctly - ie through the courts.

[mrsleeve]

You are aware the BLM owes Mr Bundy like 4 million bucks right, in the last court settlement awarded to the bundy family. This has been on going for 17 FUCKING YEARS, this is the court system at work when the feds are in it..... They will just out spend you and bleed you to death in the courts till you cant fight it any more. Also the feds have not and prolly will not pay up the 4m. They will keep spending tax monies on to keep it all tied up in court the 9th circiut till they win its "their court" (quote from a news story quoting the federal attorney ) so they dont have too.....

Yup they (the BLM and the FEDs) have driven out many of his neighbors with the very same tactics. This is fear and intimidation, this is not a good thing at all.

Holy hell. Maybe the Myans were right they just missed the date by about 16 months, this is 3 times in 8 days

[einhander]

I don't know much about the background of the case, other than Bundy's grazing rights based on inheritance were unsubstantiated.

What do the Feds owe him for?

I'm pleased the WMM did help keep his property his, eventually.

[mrsleeve]

I will see if I can refind where I found that tomarrow

[BraveUlysses]

I will see if I can refind where I found that tomarrow

You can't find what doesn't exist.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-blm-cattle-nevada-rancher-20140412,0,2071818.story

Only one party owes money here and it's the guy who has refused to pay to use public owned land.

[mrsleeve]

National news story boradcast laast week is where I saw that

[BraveUlysses]

I'll take unprovable assertion for 500, Alex.


PS you can thank saint reagan for issuing the executive order that established grazing fees http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archive...986/21486b.htm

[Farbin Kaiber]

Why Clive Bundy isn't WRONG.
There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.
-Kena Lytle Gloeckner

[BraveUlysses]

I see you've stepped up your game and now using facebook quotes to bolster bad arguments.

[Farbin Kaiber]

While I understand what you are saying, I was just posting an angle I haven't heard spoken of here.

Just for reference, how many people in this thread have actually dealt with BLM because their property ajoins BLM controlled land?

[Keith M]

Never mind

[mrsleeve]

This is the news story I saw the other night and is a very very similar story I had confused with the current one, Long time battle with the feds and the BLM about grazing rights in NV but not about the one this thread. 25 year battle with the feds and were awarded 14 mil that still has not been paid......

Sorry for the confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoX_DhFfMfk

[Farbin Kaiber]

I'm sure the link will be debated. I'm posting it anyway, we shall see what happens I guess.

http://benswann.com/exclusive-sources-inside-the-blm-and-las-vegas-metro-say-feds-are-planning-a-raid-on-bundy-home/

[einhander]

words

Weakest. Contract. Ever.

[CorvallisBMW]

I see is guy who refused to pay is taxes or fees for 20 years, has ignored court orders, has broken and continues to break the law, and a bunch of "patriots" coming to support him in his efforts to ignore and undermine the laws of the very country they claim to love and support.

I hope they throw the fucktard in jail. Why should I have to pay taxes but not him? If he's going to use public land for personal profit, he should be paying for it. Simple as that. If he's refusing to abide by the law and the courts, he should have his assets seized and be put in prison. No one should be above the law just because they have a bunch of gun-toting buddies on horses.

This sets up a very dangerous precedent. It says that if you've got enough crazy fucking gun buddies, you don't have to obey the law. Just round up all your friends, point your guns at the government and you can ignore the law all you want.

We have laws for a reason, and without them we're nothing but a failed state. There's no reason whatsoever that this guy shouldn't have to abide by the same laws that you, I, or anyone else would have to in the same situation. Fuck him. Don't like the law? Call your senator. Call your congressman, Vote, Move, I don't care what you do, but it's the law. You don't get to just ignore it for 20 years and profit off the public's assets, then threaten to kill dozens, if not hundreds, of people to keep it that way.