Fuck you Obama

[mrsleeve]

Why?
Why would driving not be a right?

Legal definitions of stalking related to harassment, intimidation, fear or a situation in which a reasonable person would believe that they are in danger.

That fits my definition of crime.

Police are allowed to follow you all day... Why is that not the same?
Private detectives follow people too.

Because driving with no training, can ENDANGER OTHERS,
Because driving after showing a blatant and habitual disregard for safety rules can ENDANGER OTHERS,
Because driving while nearly blind can ENDANGER OTHERS
Because driving with out knowing what the signs say can ENDANGER OTHERS


Shall I continue.......


Cops follow you when there is reasonable reasoning too, and why even the 9th circuit has put sever restrictions on warrant less GPS tracking of citizens. Why when it accomplishes much the same as a officer, because of the resource allocation of using actual personnel resources is a deterrent to only the most reasonable suspicions.

PI yeah some is paying someone to follow you, with out your knowledge...... Not illegal but you have to fulfill some licensing requirements to become a PI normally so your not breaking any laws while stalking people.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Because driving with no training, can ENDANGER OTHERS,
Because driving after showing a blatant and habitual disregard for safety rules can ENDANGER OTHERS,
Because driving while nearly blind can ENDANGER OTHERS
Because driving with out knowing what the signs say can ENDANGER OTHERS

DRIVING endangers others. Don't forget that one.

Most crashes happen between licensed drivers
I see presumably licensed drivers showing disregard for safety rules every day.
I wonder about their sight too. I see people who are barely aware of anything not in a circle 10 feet in front of their cars. They might as well be blind.
Have you ever driven in a third world country? They do fine without signs.

The idea that licensed = trained is... not support by experience.

Also note that I NEVER said people should drive without training.

[dadsbmw]

You seem to specialize in reductio ad absurdum aka straw man fallacy.

That's not my claim at all.

Driving is a right because everyone has the right to do anything that doesn't violate someone else's rights to do anything they want. IOW, everyone has the right to do anything and everything that doesn't hurt someone else or break their stuff.

People who claim to be human rights advocates typically don't accept that expansive definition of rights, so I have to lower the standard of explanation to fit with the restricted definition of rights that people typically have been indoctrinated to understand.

I apologize if I am misrepresenting your argument. I was attempting to summarize it based upon your previous statements.

Driving is not a right because it is defined by the government as a privilege. I am not arguing about whether or not it should be a right. I am arguing that your initial and subsequent argument that driving should be a right because travel is a right, is not logically sound.

Moreover, it is clearly not a0 right that everyone gets to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

Are you one of the people who thinks I shouldn't be allowed to own and carry a gun because I can theoretically defend myself with nunchucks?

Are you one of the people that thinks you can only defend yourself with a gun?

How ever I feel like and can pay for is the way I'll travel. I have the right to do all of the above if I can pay for it.

No you dont. You cannot legally fly an airplane without proper training.

Renters don't pay property taxes. The police don't come for them when the property tax goes unpaid.

I own rental property. I understand how rent works. I have receipts from the county tax collector for taxes paid on my property. My renters do not... because they don't own property. Their rent goes toward property taxes as a fixed cost. Their rent goes toward my mortgage too, but they don't pay that either; I do. They're also not accountable if either taxes or mortgage go unpaid; I am.

So then by this logic, you don't actually pay for anything the government does or provides. How can this be true if you "already said my taxes bought me the roads"? The government is physically paying the bill. You have not paid any of the companies that built the roads or maintains them.

I literally made no such argument. I don't expect to get anything for free.
I pay a company to pipe drinking water to and waste water from my house. I pay a company to haul my trash away. I pay a company to provide electricity to my house. I pay a company to connect my router to the internet. I pay the dump when I take trash there. I pay fuel taxes which supposedly keep the roads in service.

What do you get from your property taxes then? If you think its unfair that renters get county services from property taxes, but you also think its unfair that you have to pay property taxes for your house, then the implication is that either:
a) property taxes have no value and are simply "rent".
If this is the case then renters arent getting any county services, so theres nothing unfair about it. Since you have already stated that it IS unfair, then we must assume you meant the next point.
b) you shouldnt have to pay for the county services you receive.

But of course this is another reductio ad absurdum on my part. Im pretty sure this isn't me making straw man fallacy arguments as much as its you not realizing the points your arguments make.

Other than an egregious reductio ad absurdum; I have no idea
how you arrived at that conclusion.
Education should be paid for by people who use it; just like everything else.

[sarcasm]Another Straw Man Fallacy! Dang it![/sarcasm] Oh wait, except I did not arrive at any conclusion. I asked you questions. I was trying to clarify your reasoning, since you didnt give any other than the obviously incorrect statement that America pays the most money for the worst education in the world.

You consistently make statements without understanding their implications and then accuse me of misrepresenting them.

The threat of force is the only tool in the government toolbox. Stay non-compliant with ANY government directive--from paying your taxes to paying a speeding ticket--long enough and men with guns will come find you and take you to a place you'd rather not be.

[attitude]
Seriously, what planet are you from? You think the IRS doesn't use force to threaten people? Put down the crack pipe and join us in the real world. How many people does the IRS charge, sue or put in prison every year?
[/attitude]

I will concede this point. Force has a far more inclusive definition than I had realized.

Have you ever been to traffic court? It doesn't sound like it. Go, and see how the system operates on those--like illegal immigrants--who are just trying to make ends meet and earn a living.

I have been to traffic court many times. Here in California they generally reduce all fines to the minimum amount, no questions asked. Im not sure where you're going with this.

There's only one valid definition of crime. Crime is something that hurts someone, breaks their stuff or causes them damages.
Speeding isn't a crime. Driving without a license isn't a crime.

These activities are mala prohibita, not mala in se.

So if we take your opinion as fact, then your statement is correct. Unfortunately the interweb disagrees, and I would tend to side with the opinion that there is no universally accepted definition of crime, and that its situational.

LOL.
If everyone just obeyed the law, we'd never have had the holocaust, right?
Have you read "Three felonies a day"? Yeah, go ahead and obey every law.

How about the fallacy of false equivalence? Implying a logical equivalent of laws that allowed the Holocaust to happen to laws requiring you to pay taxes or a speeding ticket, is a fallacy.

I simply pointed out that following the law and keeping your car insured while while registered to drive on the road, would have prevented your problem. You are making arguments against something that I didnt even say, and that are not equivalent.

This will be my last post arguing with you about this as its off topic. Feel free to post your rebuttal.

[Vedubin01]

No you dont. You cannot legally fly an airplane without proper training.



.

Yes you can

[ParsedOut]

Is that Obama's fault or your company's? $18k a year is above the average total cost for family medical coverage, are they not chipping in anything? You sound like you are paying for your own coverage, not other people's, but upset it is all on you. On average, employers pay ~70% of the cost as part of benefits packages. If you are mad over this, find another employer that has better benefits - that's how free markets work. Blaming the government doesn't get you anywhere...

This is my employer's health plan, we are a small company with approx 75 employees. I don't know the % they are paying. How is this the ACA's fault? Well, the minimum required coverages (drug rehab for example) have changed and the insurance companies have increased their premiums substantially. I know I'm not the only one feeling the pain, but this act initiated and backed by our POTUS Obama is the cause. I don't care if more people are covered and overall society is "better off", I care that I'll be paying more for health insurance per month than my mortgage and car payment combined. I care that this is putting me in a position that I'll be dipping into my "holy shit" savings fund.

Thanks for pointing that out. His argument on this wasn't making sense to me either but whenever I point out his incoherent logic it starts a shitstorm of personal assault so I didn't bother engaging the inconsistency between what he was arguing he was angry about and what he was experiencing.

As for smoothie, don't flatter yourself, I could care less about you or anything you say.


Well, I gotta go...need to find a 2nd job to pay for this "affordable care".

[Schnitzer318is]

This is my employer's health plan, we are a small company with approx 75 employees. I don't know the % they are paying. How is this the ACA's fault?

Have you tried shopping around? $18k/year is excessive (by my standards). Ours went up a bit as well, but is still only a third of your outlay. That's for myself, wife, and 1 year old.

Your coverages are either awesome, you have some sort of risk factor affecting your rate, or you are over paying.

As for not caring that other people are better off... well, you are entitled to that opinion. But that is one of the reasons this country is in such disarray. If you are unhappy with what you are paying, do something about it. Exercise your right as a consumer.

[rwh11385]

Well, I gotta go...need to find a 2nd job to pay for this "affordable care".

Or.... just find a new [singular] job that actually has competitive benefits? Average employee contribution for family coverage is a tick over $4k. [http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/family-coverage/] I don't understand why you ignore facts and misplace the blame for your situation.

This is my employer's health plan, we are a small company with approx 75 employees. I don't know the % they are paying. How is this the ACA's fault? Well, the minimum required coverages (drug rehab for example) have changed and the insurance companies have increased their premiums substantially. I know I'm not the only one feeling the pain, but this act initiated and backed by our POTUS Obama is the cause. I don't care if more people are covered and overall society is "better off", I care that I'll be paying more for health insurance per month than my mortgage and car payment combined. I care that this is putting me in a position that I'll be dipping into my "holy shit" savings fund.

To be fair, $12000 a year for family coverage was already not competitive. As in, it was already nearly triple the average employee contribution for family coverage... I say you actually don't care about the truth and would rather be angry than look for a solution. You should be upset that you pay four times the national average for employer-based healthcare, not direct it at a law that has seen the average cost continue to stay near same pace it has for decades. But oh well, that will probably be lost on you.

[mrsleeve]

^
a FYI my premiums for 2015 are going to 1100 a month (but this includes dental and vision as well) ... We also got a letter this week saying how our plan is a "Grandfathered" plan how we have some things that are not covered. No I do not see the premium directly until my escrow is exhausted then I would be on self payments, since I get a set dollar amount based on every hour I work, what is over and above that monthly premium goes into escrow for continuation of my coverage when I am not on a job...

[z31maniac]

^
a FYI my premiums for 2015 are going to 1100 a month (but this includes dental and vision as well) ... We also got a letter this week saying how our plan is a "Grandfathered" plan how we have some things that are not covered. No I do not see the premium directly until my escrow is exhausted then I would be on self payments, since I get a set dollar amount based on every hour I work, what is over and above that monthly premium goes into escrow for continuation of my coverage when I am not on a job...

That's insane. You could buy insurance cheaper on the open market.

Or go to a high-deductible HSA plan. That makes way more sense with someone of your income than a Cadillac plan.

[BraveUlysses]

I don't understand why you ignore facts and misplace the blame for your situation.

Because it's easier for stupid people to complain rather than educate themselves or improve their situation.

[mrsleeve]

Well again that is a family plan, that works all over the country not just a local area or local grouping with any facility that takes United Health. If your local doc is not "in net work" they soon will be, I dont need a note to see a specialist etc.... It also includes 2k a year dropped into our HSA, and this is one of the reasons I stay in this line of work. It provides A LOT of peace of mind even though we are young and healthy strange shit can happen.

All this said we used to pay about 600 a month for her HCI before we got married, and under the ACA rules a new plan that was equivalent to what she was losing was not going to be affordable it was going to be pushing 825+ for just HER plan alone with a 2500 deduct and 80/20 there after to like 5k max out of pocket....

All this said our "fund" has been absorbing a lot of the cost increases the last few years. As 7 years ago the premium was around 800 a month, so there is that lol Now off to the dentist for a couple of drill and fills

[CorvallisBMW]

This is my employer's health plan, we are a small company with approx 75 employees.

^
a FYI my premiums for 2015 are going to 1100 a month (but this includes dental and vision as well) ...

Holy shit... both of you guys are getting royally screwed by your employers. It's not Obama's fault or the ACA's fault that your employers want you to buy crazy-expensive health plans and don't subsidize them. Seriously, do some shopping around in the open market. You can get the same coverage for less than 50% of what you're paying now.

Really though, the cost is 99% determined by your employer and 1% determined by anything gov't-related. Case-in-point, my premiums didn't go up 1 cent this year, even with all the new ACA requirements. Hell I pay $16/mo for my "high deductible" ($2k/yr) plan and we only have about 80 employees.

Seriously, you shop around for the best prices on mattresses, dishwashers, car insurance, home insurance etc... why wouldn't you do the same for health insurance?

[mrsleeve]

I dont have a choice its part of my compensation package, I can shop around to no avail its not as if I can negotiate my fringes onto my check and do my own thing. But hey I have been lucky enough to take a few months off this year and not have to think twice about my health coverage lapsing or having to make a premium payment

[CorvallisBMW]

^sounds like the opposite of a compensation package to me.

[BraveUlysses]

While your employer won't give you extra cash for not taking the healthcare, you could opt out and choose to buy insurance, which could be cheaper than paying through your employer.