Charlie Hebdo

[slaterd]

Roosevelt said it best, this should apply to ALL countries, not just the U.S.:

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Those who immigrate to another country and force it to assimilate to them is committing an act of moral treason and should not be allowed to continue residence. Assimilate, or at least make an effort to. Don't force the country who welcomed you with open arms to do so. We've done enough by allowing you in...now do your part.

[CorvallisBMW]

Word.



I might get flamed here, but I truly believe what I am about to say. If this had happened in an American city there is a very good chance these guys would be dead or wounded and not on the run. I live in a very liberal area of CA very close to SF, and even here many people have guns for their own protection. My self and my landlord both have legal and licensed weapons. Even in San Francisco there are many gun clubs, including a LGBT only gun club. I cant talk for others, but I know 100% that if I saw these guys shooting civilians and cops out side of my house, I would be holding a gun not a camera and I would be shooting led, not film. I have been in life threatening situations, and I know that I keep a clear head and respond well in stressful situations, so I would not just freeze up and watch.
I know guns are tools only useful to do one thing and that is to kill, how even the most evil tools can be used for good. Maybe that police officer would have been alive along with others if more honest people in France were armed to protect them selves and their country?

Yes, we have lots of guns in the US. Did that stop 9/11?
There are a lot of guns in Yemen, did that stop the bombing of the USS Cole?
There are lots of guns in Lebanon, did that stop the bombing of the Marine barracks?
There are lots of guns in Nigeria, did that stop hundreds of girls being abducted and forced in to sexual slavery?
It wouldn't have stopped this either.

All the fantasies in the world wouldn't have stopped it. You standing in the street with your 9mm wouldn't slow them down any more than the 2 armed police officers who were shot and killed.

Likely just some disgruntled citizens, not sure why the coincidence regarding their religious background is coming up.

Not sure if serious, or....

this was just a case of work place violence right ?????????

Not sure if serious, or....

Really? You obliviously aren't up to date on foreign affairs are you? France and Islam are practically enemies right now. France has a lot of Muslims immigrating into the country and basically forcing the French to adhere or respect their demands. The French are extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY racist towards Muslims...and for a good reason too. Take a trip to France one day and ask someone about what is going on with Muslim immigrants. You'll get a better understanding of how open minded thinking would eventually lead to the destruction of the original culture.

Europe takes in far more immigrants, including Muslim ones, than the US or Canada. Here at least new immigrants tend to be assimilated more quickly/easily in to their new surroundings and become part of the country as a whole. It's not a complete assimilation (think of all the "Little China", "Little Havana", etc neighborhoods in cities across the country) but they don't tend to stay completely isolated either. In Europe many immigrants tend to stay isolated in communities made up primarily of other immigrants from the same country/region, and struggle to assimilate. It's a situation that nearly all European countries are currently dealings with, not just France. Even the Swedes, long known as one of the most socially "mature" and tolerant populations in Europe (or even the world) have had lots of problems with highly insular communities of immigrants that, for various reasons, will not or can not assimilate in to Swedish culture, and end up highly marginalized because of it. It's this marginalization, often caused by highly segregated neighborhoods that lack many of the same social services, job opportunities, educational entities, or cultural outlets, enjoyed by the broader population, that tend to lead towards radicalization of unemployed, bored young people who then look for someone to "blame" for their situation. Of course this kind of situation also breeds contempt, and in some cases racist feelings towards, these communities and groups by the "native" elements of the population who are frustrated by that lack of assimilation, which they see as an affront to their national culture and identity. Both sides now distrust and dislike each other, leading to conflict. It's not pretty, but it's a fact.

I don't know why there is a difference in immigrant's ability (or perhaps desire) to assimilate more quickly/readily in the US vs Europe, but the results of this failure to do so are becoming an issue. And so far no one in European politics that I'm aware of has proposed any effective solutions. People on the right want to limit or even end immigration, and people on the left want to just throw money/services at them and hope they'll change. Neither will work in the way that is needed :/

[slaterd]

Until moderate Muslims start speaking up and condemning these assholes thats the way it will remain... unfortunately

Hopefully these won't be hollow promises and claims...

http://news.yahoo.com/egypts-leader-ambitious-call-reform-islam-060108959.html

CAIRO (AP) — Egypt's president opened the new year with a dramatic call for a "revolution" in Islam to reform interpretations of the faith entrenched for hundreds of years, which he said have made the Muslim world a source of "destruction" and pitted it against the rest of the world.

The speech was Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi's boldest effort yet to position himself as a modernizer of Islam. His professed goal is to purge the religion of extremist ideas of intolerance and violence that fuel groups like al-Qaida and the Islamic State — and that appear to have motivated Wednesday's attack in Paris on a French satirical newspaper that killed 12 people.

But those looking for the "Muslim Martin Luther" bringing a radical Reformation of Islam may be overreaching — and making a false comparison to begin with. El-Sissi is clearly seeking to impose change through the state, using government religious institutions like the 1,000-year-old al-Azhar, one of the most eminent centers of Sunni Muslim thought and teaching.

Al-Azhar's vision for change, however, is piecemeal, and conservative, focusing on messaging and outreach but wary of addressing deeper and more controversial issues.

Al-Azhar officials tout a YouTube channel just launched to reach out to the young, mimicking radicals' successful social media outreach to disenfranchised youth. They proudly point out that clerics in the videos wear suits, not al-Azhar's traditional robes and turbans, to be more accessible.

Young people "have a negative image toward this garb," said Mohie Eddin Affifi, an al-Azhar official. "As soon as they see it they don't listen."

View galleryFILE - In this Oct. 25, 2014, file photo provided by …
FILE - In this Oct. 25, 2014, file photo provided by Egypt's state news agency MENA, Egyptian Pr …
In a more ambitious effort, religious school textbooks are under review. Affifi said texts outlining rules for slavery, for instance, have been removed.

It's a problem across the Muslim world: State religious institutions are burdened by stagnation and heavy control by authorities.

For decades, al-Azhar has lost credibility in the eyes of many Muslim youth who see it as mouthpiece of the state rather than an honest interpreter of religion. More appealing to some young men and women searching for identity in a rapidly changing world are calls for a return to the roots of the faith, including from the extremists of al-Qaida and the Islamic State.

In his Jan. 1 speech at al-Azhar addressing Muslim clerics — held to mark the Prophet Muhammad's birthday — el-Sissi called on them to promote a reading of Islamic texts in a "truly enlightened" manner to reconsider concepts "that have been made sacred over hundreds of years."

By such thinking, the Islamic world is "making enemies of the whole world. So 1.6 billion people (in the Muslim world) will kill the entire world of 7 billion? That's impossible ... We need a religious revolution."

View galleryFILE - In this Aug. 11, 2014, file photo provided by …
FILE - In this Aug. 11, 2014, file photo provided by the Saudi Press Agency, Egyptian President Abde …
Radicals — and el-Sissi's Islamist political opponents who have wide religious followings — angrily denounced el-Sissi, saying he was trying to corrupt the religion. Even secularists, who would normally promote a more modern interpretation of Islam, frowned at el-Sissi's statist approach to such a complicated issue. "A state-approved revolution," questioned Amina Khairi, a columnist in the generally pro-state newspaper al-Watan.

And even state religious officials pushed back against the use of the word "revolution" or the idea of dramatic change.

Affifi, from al-Azhar, told the AP that el-Sissi didn't mean changing texts -- something even el-Sissi quickly made clear in his speech.

"What the president meant is that we need a contemporary reading for religious texts to deal with our contemporary reality," said Affifi, who is secretary general of the Islamic Research Center. The center is an Al-Azhar body responsible for studying Islamic issues and for providing preachers to explain religious affairs to the police, military, schools, government and private companies. It is also responsible for censorship.

He said al-Azhar has already been working for months on such a campaign, following calls for modernizing the faith that el-Sissi has been making since his May presidential election campaign. Committees have been examining textbooks used in the large network of grade schools and universities that al-Azhar runs across Egypt to remove things that have "no place in modern life." Texts on slavery and on refusing to greet Christians and Jews, for example, have been removed.

View galleryFILE - In this Jan. 6, 2015, file photo, Egypt's …
FILE - In this Jan. 6, 2015, file photo, Egypt's President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi, second right, …
Affifi said positions on issues like slavery, jihad and dealings with non-Muslims were adopted by scholars five centuries ago in a particular historical context. "These were opinions of scholars, these interpretations are not sacred."

There is also a push to encourage a nationalism that officials see as moderating religious sentiment. El-Sissi this week attended Christmas services for Egypt's Orthodox Coptic Christians and declared that Egyptians should not view each other as Christians or Muslims but as Egyptians.

The sheik of al-Azhar has launched a campaign in schools and universities promoting the message that "love of nation is part of faith," said Affifi. Al-Azhar also plans to introduce a new Islamic culture course in all of Egypt's universities, Affifi said.

For el-Sissi, the impetus for his modernization campaign is not only the violence wreaked by extremist groups around the Mideast and the world. It's also rooted in his political rivalry with the Muslim Brotherhood. El-Sissi, then head of the military, led the overthrow in July 2013 of an elected president from the Brotherhood, and since then Egypt has cracked down hard on Islamists, with hundreds killed in street clashes and thousands jailed.

To counter Islamists' claims of religiosity, el-Sissi has presented himself throughout his rise as a pious proponent of a moderate, mainstream Islam.

View galleryFILE - In this June 25, 2014, file photo, Egyptian …
FILE - In this June 25, 2014, file photo, Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi stands at Algiers …
At the same time, his government has shown little tolerance for dissent of any kind. That raises a key problem with the "religion revolution" — state control over religious reform could just stifle it. Al-Azhar has always claimed to be the bastion of "moderate" Islam, but it has moved to silence progressive and liberal re-interpretations just as often as radical ones.

"Any religious modernization will ultimately be against al-Azhar, since it is the conservative fortress in the system," said Amr Ezzat, religion researcher at the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. The "authority of religion over modern life and law is what needs to be reviewed. What we need is freedom to have more than one religious discourse to enrich discussion, because as it is pluralism is outlawed."

State control of al-Azhar makes those most vulnerable to militancy least likely to listen.

If the sheik of al-Azhar speaks out against radicalism — as he often does — "no one who is remotely inclined to a violent interpretation will be impressed by that," said H.A. Hellyer, a fellow at the Centre for Middle East policy at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "They will say: You are just an ally of the state, instead of a genuinely independent figure."

Like Ezzat, he says only independent voices can present a counter-narrative to militant thought. But al-Sissi shows no sign of allowing that, Hellyer said.

[slaterd]

From what I've gathered, Europe is way worse than the US when it comes to racism/religious intolerance. You think the NY Times would get away with publishing the same anti-muslim cartoons?

As to the blood, the video is potato quality from across the street. No surprise you can't see any.

The world would truly be fucked if every Islamic person was violent. Its a small number in a very large scale of people....

Word.



I might get flamed here, but I truly believe what I am about to say. If this had happened in an American city there is a very good chance these guys would be dead or wounded and not on the run. I live in a very liberal area of CA very close to SF, and even here many people have guns for their own protection. My self and my landlord both have legal and licensed weapons. Even in San Francisco there are many gun clubs, including a LGBT only gun club. I cant talk for others, but I know 100% that if I saw these guys shooting civilians and cops out side of my house, I would be holding a gun not a camera and I would be shooting led, not film. I have been in life threatening situations, and I know that I keep a clear head and respond well in stressful situations, so I would not just freeze up and watch.
I know guns are tools only useful to do one thing and that is to kill, how even the most evil tools can be used for good. Maybe that police officer would have been alive along with others if more honest people in France were armed to protect them selves and their country?

I was also thinking this. I'm in the process of getting my fire arm ID just in case shit pops off here in NJ.

Well said.

Qft I'd be shooting back.

Alright let me clarify some stuff for you guys. I was just walking down that street last Friday night on a vacation with my wife to see her family. What everyone is missing is that France is completely different than America. They don't carry guns because THEY DON'T NEED TO. Compared to the US, the crime rate is astonishingly lower. It is illegal for anyone other than military or police officers to carry a gun. When you walk the streets you will see that there is practically zero crime. They are able to live more peacefully because IMO they are more socially advanced than us.

I saw it first hand on new years that the majority of those burning cars and making a huge mess of everything were in fact middle eastern or of that ethnicity. There is a reason French HATE...and I mean HATE Islam and immigrating Muslims...I don't blame them. I had several guys trying to pick a fight with me all whom were middle eastern. The whole "open mindedness" is causing a complete cultural take-over in France. I hate to say it but the French culture that we know of today will mostly be gone within 40-50 years. Immigrants from Islam countries are destroying their culture by making them bend to theirs. They bitch and whine constantly without understanding that they came into someone else's country. THEY need to respect the French culture and religion...not the other way around. If your home country is so great and pure then why would you go to another and make others bend to you? For those who say "you can't stereotype or make a whole group accountable for a small number". Do you think just a small handful of immigrants caused so much hate towards them? Do you think that a small handful has nearly caused a cultural and political upheaval in France? Stereotypes don't come from the small amounts in a group. Stereotypes form from the image or actions done by the majority of its members or it is the group where those actions/images statistically will come from.

This definitely did not help the relations between the French and Muslim community at all.

[slaterd]

I hate to say it but this stuff doesn't even surprise me anymore. It's a damn shame. What's worse is that there's people out there that think these individuals represent the entire Islamic religion.

It doesn't matter about how many in a group do it. What matters is what group do these instances typically come from. That's what will eventually cause these stereotypes. When you hear someone say "terrorist" what group do you think of? A lot of people would say middle eastern because the majority of terrorist attacks come from those of that race or religions associated with that area of the world.

[slaterd]

Likely just some disgruntled citizens, not sure why the coincidence regarding their religious background is coming up.

Really? You obliviously aren't up to date on foreign affairs are you? France and Islam are practically enemies right now. France has a lot of Muslims immigrating into the country and basically forcing the French to adhere or respect their demands. The French are extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY racist towards Muslims...and for a good reason too. Take a trip to France one day and ask someone about what is going on with Muslim immigrants. You'll get a better understanding of how open minded thinking would eventually lead to the destruction of the original culture.

[deutschman]

"the rules you make for your club do not apply to those who are not in your club"

[Massimo]

this was just a case of work place violence right ?????????

I would walk straight into HR and demand they raise a work place safety report

[deutschman]

At least two of them were French nationals, the one that got killed by the cops during a rare I am not sure of. But they were Muslim and all the witnesses said they were shouting praise God and the profit is avenged.

[mrsleeve]

this was just a case of work place violence right ?????????

[ThatOneEuroE30]

Likely just some disgruntled citizens, not sure why the coincidence regarding their religious background is coming up.

Because the author was anti Islam. In the video you can hear Islamic shit. You can hear them in the video.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Likely just some disgruntled citizens, not sure why the coincidence regarding their religious background is coming up.

[ThatOneEuroE30]

Word.



I might get flamed here, but I truly believe what I am about to say. If this had happened in an American city there is a very good chance these guys would be dead or wounded and not on the run. I live in a very liberal area of CA very close to SF, and even here many people have guns for their own protection. My self and my landlord both have legal and licensed weapons. Even in San Francisco there are many gun clubs, including a LGBT only gun club. I cant talk for others, but I know 100% that if I saw these guys shooting civilians and cops out side of my house, I would be holding a gun not a camera and I would be shooting led, not film. I have been in life threatening situations, and I know that I keep a clear head and respond well in stressful situations, so I would not just freeze up and watch.
I know guns are tools only useful to do one thing and that is to kill, how even the most evil tools can be used for good. Maybe that police officer would have been alive along with others if more honest people in France were armed to protect them selves and their country?

Qft I'd be shooting back.

[5ickride]

Word.



I might get flamed here, but I truly believe what I am about to say. If this had happened in an American city there is a very good chance these guys would be dead or wounded and not on the run. I live in a very liberal area of CA very close to SF, and even here many people have guns for their own protection. My self and my landlord both have legal and licensed weapons. Even in San Francisco there are many gun clubs, including a LGBT only gun club. I cant talk for others, but I know 100% that if I saw these guys shooting civilians and cops out side of my house, I would be holding a gun not a camera and I would be shooting led, not film. I have been in life threatening situations, and I know that I keep a clear head and respond well in stressful situations, so I would not just freeze up and watch.
I know guns are tools only useful to do one thing and that is to kill, how even the most evil tools can be used for good. Maybe that police officer would have been alive along with others if more honest people in France were armed to protect them selves and their country?

I was also thinking this. I'm in the process of getting my fire arm ID just in case shit pops off here in NJ.

[deutschman]

Until moderate Muslims start speaking up and condemning these assholes thats the way it will remain... unfortunately

Word.



I might get flamed here, but I truly believe what I am about to say. If this had happened in an American city there is a very good chance these guys would be dead or wounded and not on the run. I live in a very liberal area of CA very close to SF, and even here many people have guns for their own protection. My self and my landlord both have legal and licensed weapons. Even in San Francisco there are many gun clubs, including a LGBT only gun club. I cant talk for others, but I know 100% that if I saw these guys shooting civilians and cops out side of my house, I would be holding a gun not a camera and I would be shooting led, not film. I have been in life threatening situations, and I know that I keep a clear head and respond well in stressful situations, so I would not just freeze up and watch.
I know guns are tools only useful to do one thing and that is to kill, how even the most evil tools can be used for good. Maybe that police officer would have been alive along with others if more honest people in France were armed to protect them selves and their country?