We are ALL being played

[mbonder]

My point is that anyone can claim that they influenced another person because subversion...

I just don't buy it, that an entire industry (academia) is wholly changed by one entity just doesn't sit with me.

[naplesE30]

Isn’t that the point of subversion. To influence another, without their knowledge of you manipulating them. I don’t think “Comunism is good, brough to you by mother Russia” billboards would be an effective strategy.

[mbonder]

The problem that I have with it is that he makes a lot of claims that society was affected in some way (by Russia and the KGB) and that they are the reason for people holding the stances that they hold.

Although I don't doubt that the Soviets attempted plenty of propaganda in the name of swaying peoples' opinions, there's absolutely no way to prove any of it is directly connected to Russia (which sounds funny saying that in the context of the Mueller Report).

How can anyone prove that the Soviets had any influence over academia? It's impossible unless a professor comes out and says I'm all in for Mother Russia! Teachers in all disciplines have generally had a more liberal viewpoint when compared to many other sectors of society, this far predates Marxist-Leninism so his claims of their successes are highly dubious to me.

[naplesE30]

4 Steps to Subversion of a Nation:

Demoralization
Destabilization (economy, defense)
Crisis
Normalization

It's interesting in the context of the cold war, however he's saying that the last stage, normalization, will be a move to marxist-leninism, which I don't think we are moving toward. Bernie Sanders and the left movement aren't anywhere near Marxist-Leninism. People arguing otherwise don't really know what that political philosophy actually looks like in reality.

I would agree Marxism/Leninism is a stretch, but that may have been the goals in the 70’s when he was an agent. Goals and plans certainly are fluid and change over time. I don’t think Russia itself are even practicing those forms anymore. However, his forecasts are alarmingly accurate in some ways. Especially with the internet, the ability for a state to overwhelm one with information to where the truth is impossible to ascertain. I do think that it is evident though the Russia has had success influencing academia, as I am sure we also have had imposing our beliefs in Russia.

There was a good biographical series( may still be available) on Netflix or Prime that I watched on Trotsky. It is entertaining, and the actors are solid, even if it is a bit fantastical at times.

[mbonder]

4 Steps to Subversion of a Nation:

Demoralization
Destabilization (economy, defense)
Crisis
Normalization

It's interesting in the context of the cold war, however he's saying that the last stage, normalization, will be a move to marxist-leninism, which I don't think we are moving toward. Bernie Sanders and the left movement aren't anywhere near Marxist-Leninism. People arguing otherwise don't really know what that political philosophy actually looks like in reality.

[naplesE30]

https://youtu.be/JVkkLDAm8I4

There are longer more in depth versions, make of it what you want.

[phillipj]

"The Century of the Self" by Adam Curtis for the BBC. Check it out, definitely share what you think!

It's quite a documentary series about the beginning of PR -- manipulating the masses -- and how it eventually translates to politics or what we think we should be buying. Great history content here!

There may be better quality youtube links out there, but this one has all the episodes strung together into one.

[R3Z3N]

I love watching this YT channel Smarter Every Day, and it's nice to see someone going straight to the sources to find more information about fooling the social media giants software so that fake news and videos can capture the attention of those oblivious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4

[phillipj]

so where's the outrage at being lied to all these years from the libs here? and anyone else that believed the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC?

https://megaphone.link/PPY8705930022

^^Jeremy Scahill does an excellent job on all this in this weeks Intercepted Podcast. You would like it gwb72tii!! he has Matt Taibbi on (starts about 5-10 mins in) who you recently linked to in one of your posts (probably unknowingly); he is an excellent, very progressive investigative journalist and writer who, along with the Intercept, has been calling Russiagate a mostly 'nothing burger' from the get go-- instead they have been trying to hold the Trump Administration -- as well as the Neoliberal Democrats-- accountable for all the obvious, actual wrongs - ie. all the real 'collusion' with Israel and Saudi Arabia, as well as so many other countless blunders you can't even count them anymore.

>>Just because a lot of us despise Trump for very real reasons doesn't mean we were ever ok with Establishment Democrats never taking ownership of why they lost the election, and we were never okay with the mainstream TV-news media orgy over Trump for ratings and their orgy speculating Russia spy conspiracies so that they never had to do any real reporting. They are all pathetic, truly none of them are on our side.

[phillipj]

because humans are primates. tribal creatures. D v R is just one manifestation of that nature.

present an external threat to the power balance of the current "us vs them" dynamic, and you can utilize that instinctive response to accomplish goals like #buildthewall.

^^#buildthewall is a fantastic example, thank you


It's unfortunately how each "side" maintains power. There is no incentive to work together for the good of the people when the people are not the first priority.

[gwb72tii]

so where's the outrage at being lied to all these years from the libs here? and anyone else that believed the likes of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC?

[decay]

Why D v R? Why versus? That is the problem. The lie has been taken as truth.

because humans are primates. tribal creatures. D v R is just one manifestation of that nature.

present an external threat to the power balance of the current "us vs them" dynamic, and you can utilize that instinctive response to accomplish goals like #buildthewall.

[TimeMachinE30]

oh we've already got more than just D v R, believe me.

Why D v R? Why versus? That is the problem. The lie has been taken as truth.

I pondered this today. A barber shop, and I believe history would support many public places, were a place to converse. Public oratory, Roman days of yore, paideia... now everyone is huddled with their phone reading likely biased pieces. perhaps reading is antisocial. Then the thought of public discussion in such a place could erupt into bitter feuds more likely than a decent conversation. It is not that I believe the people in the shop were indecent people, but we as nation are unable to be decent in ideology and our sharing of our views.

Truly, a death of public discourse.

[decay]

Glad to see both sides of the political spectrum are represented on the forum. Now we just need a libertarian thread.

oh we've already got more than just D v R, believe me.

[e30RS]

Glad to see both sides of the political spectrum are represented on the forum. Now we just need a libertarian thread.