Democratic Primary Season 2020

[cale]

I dont disagree with you, in fact I think it was a bullshit stop on the part of the CBP as well, I am not arguing that. I am saying sometimes some common sense is needed on the part of people in general, including the idiot with a badge in this case as well.

What are you suggesting would have been the common sense approach the women in this situation should have used to avoid the result they experienced? Granted we're assuming what the women have said is true, and if it actually is, they did absolutely nothing wrong including filming the officer.

[mrsleeve]

Speaking a language other than English while trying to buy eggs is anything but suspicious behavior. I pity anyone who is set off by this, and any law enforcement officer who responds this way, shouldn't be one.

I dont disagree with you, in fact I think it was a bullshit stop on the part of the CBP as well, I am not arguing that. I am saying sometimes some common sense is needed on the part of people in general, including the idiot with a badge in this case as well.

[cale]

You know personal responsibility for ones own actions, and just because you can (legally) does not always mean its a good idea to do something and there wont be issues that stem from it right or wrong.

Speaking a language other than English while trying to buy eggs is anything but suspicious behavior. I pity anyone who is set off by this, and any law enforcement officer who responds this way, shouldn't be one.

[mbonder]

Owns a brewery, the millennials will love him!

Sounds like a true self-made man, curious to know where he stands on some of the major issues.

[phillipj]

John Hickenlooper -- could be a Dark Horse, decent intro here:

https://www.businessinsider.com/john-hickenlooper-brewery-owner-governor-possible-2020-democratic-contender-2019-2

Hickenlooper would be Trump's worst nightmare in a debate... He's self-deprecating, has a wicked sense of humor, and is actually a successful self-made businessman, unlike Trump who inherited all his wealth.

[mbonder]

Washington Governor, Jay Inslee into the race

[decay]

LGBTs have the same rights as anyone else, from the 1st to the 23rd, the same state and local protections, and have greater protections under the law than "normal people" thanks to hate crime laws.

in theory. not in practice.

[mrsleeve]

i would expect air-quotes like that from someone in a state where a citizen was just detained by border patrol for speaking spanish because that's "unheard of" in your parts

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants...eaking-spanish

LGBTs have the same rights as anyone else, from the 1st to the 23rd, the same state and local protections, and have greater protections under the law than "normal people" thanks to hate crime laws. The air quotes were there to put emphasis on the SINGLE perceived issues some vote base upon, mayhaps "LGBT issues" may have been a better choice of words, and might not have triggered you so much and caused you so much dismay.

Aww CBP fucks up again this kinda shit happens every day from all manner of LE agencies all over the country, just because it occurred in a rail way stop in nowheresville MT its now news worthy??? They were detained long enough to verify their identity and their story and released..... They were not arrested or jailed.

Not saying its right, but given their location, ( have you ever been to a very small town in the middle of the high plains that was not a protest camp) could the 2 girls have exercised better judgment to not attract unwanted attention? You know personal responsibility for ones own actions, and just because you can (legally) does not always mean its a good idea to do something and there wont be issues that stem from it right or wrong. Like where I live, I dont mow my lawn, plow snow, have loud parties, leave my bright outdoor lights on etc.... at 1am, even though I can I dont, because that will piss off my neighbors and they might start doing things to retaliate and I like to get along with my community. Or I can carry a loaded pistol openly on each hip with a loaded AR15 in a chest rig in full tac gear with plates and 800 rounds to Safeway to get my groceries, but I dont as the cops would be called (likely be shot at anymore) and I would be asked for my ID and detained while my background was checked and story verified. Again just because you can does not mean you should, this lack of common sense and good judgement seems to be a recurring theme anymore unless of course all thats wanted is the publicity and internet fame and attention that comes with it all.

I think I've said this elsewhere before, but I'll say it again:

1. If you have a penis, and use the women's restroom, there are only stalls. No big deal.

2. If you have a vagina, and go into a men's restroom, you'll have to use a stall since you aren't going to be hiking a leg into a urinal or a trough. No big deal.

Not really sure about this, but I suspect many many woman would feel very threatened by dudes walking to the bathroom on the regular.


1: If you have a dick and feel like a woman, you should be using a stall to sit when you pee, no big deal to use the door corresponding to your factory installed OEM plumbing

2: If you have a vajay jay, and you feel like a dude, you still have to sit when you pee, so your going to be using a stall anyway, so no big deal to use the door corresponding to your factory installed OEM plumbing.

3: Once you go non OEM and swap the parts out so your configuration matches the picture on the door you wish to use, then by all means use that door.


While your points are valid form a "exposure" standpoint, this does not eliminate the pervy issues of this. When the bulk of society becomes accustom to something like dudes in the woman's shit house at target, or home depot, your local watering hole or the DMV, it makes it much easier for perverts to exploit the situation. Of which there are significant numbers of, that I would suspect outnumber those that want to use the other door due to their "feelers" though I dont have any data to back that up, but when every few years we have a couple of dudes willing to crawl in vault outhouses or now place go-pros in them makes me wonder.

Why is this even a concern?

"That freak is going to molest my children."

No, the numbers show it will the be the parents, extended family, close friend of the family, or someone from the clergy.

IE someone the child knows.

Its not so much a touchy thing (though many people feel that way) to me, as it is from a violation of privacy, perceived safety from the REST of of the people in the shit house by allowing people access to places they have no business being. Its a Pandora's box so to speak.

While I tend to side with the point that this topic is political BS for the most part rooted in the Bible thumping areas, (hence why I used it as a hot button example of single issue voters). Its more so on the part of the very very minuscule percentage yelling the loudest stirring up as much shit a possible, we have far far greater issues to deal with than shit like this.

Like quashing this stupid "New New deal" thing form whats her face from NY that all the D 2020 hopefuls are jumping behind, that is projected to cost the ENTIRE USA GDP for 45% of the 1st decade that its in place ( based on 2018 GDP numbers)

[mbonder]

I agree, the bathroom thing is political theatre at its finest, no real concern. I've been in plenty of restrooms, never seen this issue even occur and I live in a fairly densely populated area where you'd think just based on probability it would happen.

Additionally, does anyone really care outside of a very small minority of the US population?

[z31maniac]

or that an individual with a cock can use what ever bathroom "he identifies with".

I think I've said this elsewhere before, but I'll say it again:

1. If you have a penis, and use the women's restroom, there are only stalls. No big deal.

2. If you have a vagina, and go into a men's restroom, you'll have to use a stall since you aren't going to be hiking a leg into a urinal or a trough. No big deal.


Why is this even a concern?

"That freak is going to molest my children."

No, the numbers show it will the be the parents, extended family, close friend of the family, or someone from the clergy.

IE someone the child knows.

[decay]

LGBT's "rights"

i would expect air-quotes like that from someone in a state where a citizen was just detained by border patrol for speaking spanish because that's "unheard of" in your parts

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-patrol-abuses/border-patrol-detained-me-speaking-spanish

[Schnitzer318is]

God, it sure sucks to be so realistic.

FTFY.

BTW, I agree with you and Z31. Money on the corporate and private side run this gov't. I have no delusions about that. Have espoused that myself on here many a time, including a few posts or so ago.

[phillipj]

... If age is brought up, won't it be just as much of an issue for Trump? The argument certainly can be made that they're all within a few years of each other and therefore age is irrelevant.

I agree, I think so as well. If the two nominees are close in age, perhaps the number goes out the window, but what I really wish would happen is not a discussion about age but a proper discussion about mental fitness. What is ludicrous to me is how can you miss what is staring you in the face -- that so many choose to just play along & ignore that Trump does not have the depth for the job. ...There's an old saying: "we call poor people crazy, but rich people eccentric."

... (Sorry philipj, can't they change their mind and evolve?). I'd rather that than for them to stick to a flawed position long after it's been deemed flawed (Think segregationists in the 1970s).

I think we get bugged when we hear 'I evolved' as a stand in for 'I didn't take the right stand in the first place because that was too tough politically.' You saw that so much with Hillary Clinton and it constantly read as (rightfully) phony.

As for Obama ...

To do that proper justice would be a long discussion over many beers! ... we really digressed!

... However, you sort of know what you are getting with Biden and in my eyes, it's better to have a known quantity than an unknown one. Trump was an unknown quantity which we are learning new things about every day, he'll clearly always have his devoted supporters...

I agree that Biden is at least a known commodity. And, at least he'd bring a real fight to Trump. Bernie even moreso...

I do think Donald Trump was a known quantity, it's just that everybody is so desperate; he's bankrupting the country just like his businesses; the swamp is swampier; Mexico paying for a wall was a sham; the wall was a sham; becoming less interventionist was a sham. The supporters will fall away as it becomes more and more obvious they were taken for a ride yet again. Poor us. Fucked again. That's when we should be especially worried, because when Trump loses more of his base he will start acting even more erratic.

Let the fun continue!

Indeed! :cheers:

[mbonder]

It's a good discussion, and I appreciate it. :cheers:

Ha, like plagiarism, amongst others -- although in this day and age he looks relatively saintly(!) especially compared to a pathological liar like Trump, or a Clinton, however you can set the bar no lower!!

He's likely learned a lot from his past experiences, and running today is far different than in 1988, but he has never been considered or performed like a strong candidate when he had his chances.

He also has a past record that puts him wayyyy out of step with today and leaves him open to valid criticism. His actions in the Clarence Thomas confirmations kind of loom large given the recent storyline with Kavanaugh; the Clinton Crime Bill, Bankruptcy reform bill, etc. He's probably 'evolved' though? (But don't we so hate when politicians say that...)


Age will be a criticism for a Biden or a Sanders, whether it is valid or not. (Being of sound mind should -- every candidate should be independently evaluated). And let's be quite honest: it looms larger for Sanders because the power-brokers of this country do not want him in office -- he also does not have the hair-plugs, fake teeth and orange tan of Trump or Biden. (gross)

I read up on the plagiarism thing and I think it was overblown, he used similar speeches on multiple occasions and gave credit within them to the original author. I can't say with absolute certainty that he did or didn't want to do the same in the one that he got nailed for, but you'd assume that if he gave credit before he would have done it again. He took responsibility for it afterward, but that definitely sunk his campaign in 1988. I was only 3 at the time so I'm only speaking from what I read, I wasn't old enough to actually have a memory of it.

If age is brought up, won't it be just as much of an issue for Trump? The argument certainly can be made that they're all within a few years of each other and therefore age is irrelevant.

Certainly, being in government for over 30 years has left Biden with plenty of skeletons in his closet from years past, but honestly, the world is a lot different now than it was during the Clinton years, generally everyone that voted (Rep and Dem alike) for the Crime Bill and mandatory minimums as well as harsh punishments have nearly to the person accepted that it didn't work out. I don't necessarily see that as a flaw of character or decision-making process, but as the continued evolution of a politician (Sorry philipj, can't they change their mind and evolve?). I'd rather that than for them to stick to a flawed position long after it's been deemed flawed (Think segregationists in the 1970s).


As for Obama, I will say that he put many of his political eggs into the healthcare basket. If it didn't get passed he would have been considered a failure by nearly everyone. Because of this there were compromises that were made, which in hindsight probably shouldn't have been. I don't know that you can necessarily fault him for this completely as the legislation wasn't a one-man effort. Additionally, I think that healthcare took longer and wasted too much political capital for him to do much else that he had promised. There were smaller accomplishments along the way, but nothing like the soaring rhetoric of his campaigns, especially the one in 2008. The death knell to his ability to maneuver was when Congress flipped in 2010 and he was emasculated for the two remaining years of his presidency.


Disclaimer: I'm not committed to any of the Dem candidates at this point, I think it's too early to tell who actually will have a chance (However it's nice to actually discuss things in this subforum). However, you sort of know what you are getting with Biden and in my eyes, it's better to have a known quantity than an unknown one. Trump was an unknown quantity which we are learning new things about every day, he'll clearly always have his devoted supporters, but my guess is that he has lost some of those that were on the fence and voted for him out of a hatred for Hillary/the Democrats in general. Biden might be a return to "normal" for some after four years of Trump, which is part of why I think he's getting early support. I think this goes beyond just "name recognition", although I don't wholly discount that either.


Let the fun continue!

[phillipj]

This is why I constantly tell people outside of abortion and a few social issues, the R's and D's are basically the same party.

Erode our rights, support the Patriot Act, never ending war (Obama continued or started bombing 7 different countries during his 2 terms), Democrats take money from big pharma and have no problem with them screwing us on drug prices, etc etc.

Right on. The powers that be want to keep it this way. The system really needs upheaval, but, given how money has been allowed to rule our politics it'll just never happen. Even if you have a well-meaning Independent run on individual, small donations and somehow win, they are going to need a lot of help from others tied up in the party-structure to truly reform campaign finance, elections, lobbying to get us to a truer "democracy".

Truly the best window we had for all this was in 2008, given the immense fear and anger with the Financial meltdown and the overall disgust with the Wars/Bush years. I'm not sure when the next window comes, or, sadly, if it ever comes at all.


**edit: I do believe we'll see a sizable Economic downturn + even more stressing times come Fall 2020, however I do not think the opportunity will be as ripe as 2008 nor will we have the leadership in the right place for real, systematic change. God, it sure sucks to be so pessimistic.