Experienced Track Junkies - A moment please?

[nando]

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

this hasn't really been my experience. it probably varies track to track, but other than genuine supercars I haven't really been ran down by that many cars.

[Charlie]

you should never ever ever go off line to let anyone by. If a car has 300 hp you dont need to lift to let them by. And dealing with all that trafic will give you better situational awareness. I have passed Vipers in a Touareg, so dont start with excuses. Do you want to be the faster the car or the better driver?

Yea dude, I know the driver's school cliches too.

When I'm out there running TT's & instructor sessions, I'll move offline to give a guy on a flyer room. If you're talking schools, general ettiquette is still to lift when a point is given. That fucks your rhythm if you're in a tiny motored car.

The guy was simply asking a motor question, it seems like everyone loves to chime in with the same "hurfdeedurf, fast car/fast driver" lines every single f'n time.

To add to the discussion, ran an m20 for 8+ years until I popped it coming through turn 13 at Mid Oh. Stuck a 2.5 Vanos M50 in the car, nice upgrade. Not tons of extra power up top, but a bunch more midrange, really changes the car. Eats E36 M3s and can hassle E46s.

-Charlie

[briansjacobs]

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

you should never ever ever go off line to let anyone by. If a car has 300 hp you dont need to lift to let them by. And dealing with all that trafic will give you better situational awareness. I have passed Vipers in a Touareg, so dont start with excuses. Do you want to be the faster the car or the better driver?

[Emre]

I know the M20 is fine for track days...

It is. Engine mods are not really as useful on the track as you'd think. Spend your money on suspension, brakes, tires, and driving schools. Keep the drivetrain stock. A properly set up E30 can be incredibly quick and fun-to-drive even with a bone-stock M20 under the hood.

I was at Tremblant this weekend running my 318is. Here's the set-up: stock 165,000 mile M20 under the hood; Turner J-Stock springs; Bilstein Sport dampers; IE sways; big-brake kit (Lee's smallest kit, but with smaller NDL calipers instead of the Superlights); Toyo R1R street tires. Full interior, etc. There were two other E30's in the Instructor group. One had an M50 swap the other was running a 2.8L stroker. Both were running r-compounds. Both were stripped out. They were running pretty close to each other. I was a bit quicker than both, despite less power, more weight, and less grip.

Theoretically..... If you had the brakes to go with the increase in power, would you guys prefer a turbo m20 or an s50 (or variation of 24v swap).

Personally, I wouldn't spend any time/money on an engine swap or turbo build for a track rat. Your money is much better spent elsewhere. Like doing as many driving schools as you possibly can. If I was quicker than the other E30s, it's 100% down to track knowledge (I know Tremblant inside-out).

[Charlie]

if you want to seriously improve the driver, fix the car and leave it as stock as possible. This will yield the fastest driver, very rare that anyone ever listens to this advice.

Because in most track days today, a barely 160 hp E30 gets eaten alive by every other car it's sharing the track with that has 300+ hp. Hard to learn a lot when you're off line every single lap, slowing up and giving 5 point bys.

-Charlie

[briansjacobs]

if you want to seriously improve the driver, fix the car and leave it as stock as possible. This will yield the fastest driver, very rare that anyone ever listens to this advice.

[Bishop]

This would be an SCCA time trials car as an end result, probably nothing more. SE30 isn't popular enough around here, and if I wanted to do some actual racing down the line, i could join spec miata, but that's all just a thought process right now....

Right now the reality of my situation is this:

I'm a full-time college student, nearly full-time employee. I was looking at e36 M3s after I got out of my 07 STi and was kinda turned off on how common they were, which is when I stumbled across the e30 chassis. Pretty much instantly loved it's old, quirky, boxy look. Picked one up and haven't looked back. As an end result (I know this sounds expensive, but hey, who hasn't played this scenario out in their mind) I'd like the BMW to be a dedicated track / fun car. Not necessarily for racing in any particular league, but like I said, Time Trials and fun? And I'd like to pick up another Subaru to DD (the list goes deeper like another Jeep, really miss my old Wrangler and I'd like a bike at some point, and of course a trailer and a tow vehicle ;) ). But for right now, the BMW is my DD, the driver can definitely be improved upon, I need to learn how to set up the suspension and recognize what it's doing and how to correct (after tuning myself, yadda yadda), and later on, after I'm a better driver, I'd be able to fully utilize a BBK and a boost in power. As it sits now, since the car is MOSTLY a DD, it's annoyingly down on power, so I'd like to improve upon that, with a weekend warrior / end result in mind as a part time racer.

[briansjacobs]

my understanding is this is not a race build at all. I would not build an E30 for racing as there are so few places to race them competitively. You want to race on a budget you buy a miata. You want a fun dd/hpde car you get a BMW.

you want a little more pep for now start with gears. You can do a turbo for much less than a 24V swap but it is a long list of other things to throw money at after. Especially when you track it!

[Bishop]

That's kinda where I'm at... I'm not THAT deep into it, but I'm not really a competitive racer... yet.... I DD my car, and it's a blast, but it's down on power... So looking for a good compromise between DD and track. Down the line, who knows, I might have an e36. But I don't think selling this car and buying an M3 is going to happen any time soon. The 24v swap is common, but seems to cost as much as a turbo setup, so just wondering which would be the wiser decision for someone in my position.

[briansjacobs]

Thanks Brian... The thought's crossed my mind, but I'm pretty deep into this e30 right now and I'm wary of the e36s... People like to talk about how they're always breaking (little things) or something's always wrong.... I used to wanna believe that as internet hear-say... But now 2 local friends both have e36s and both are constantly wrenching...

how many people do you know constantly wrenching on E30's? sounds like everyone on R3v is constantly doing something or trying to figure something out. I would not hesitate to buy an E36. It is a great car, but cars with years and mileage need wrenching. I think in the long run the E36 is cheaper to own if you want a go fast car as there are so many of them still running. Not to mention the fact that the E30 is such a cult status car now that a nice one is actually worth more than its E36 sibling. The only big problem with the M5x/S5x motors was oil pump nut and the lifters losing prime, which all you need to do is run an extra .5 qt oil to solve.

with that said, im keeping my E30 because I love it and I have to much into it to ever sell it.

[Bishop]

Thanks Brian... The thought's crossed my mind, but I'm pretty deep into this e30 right now and I'm wary of the e36s... People like to talk about how they're always breaking (little things) or something's always wrong.... I used to wanna believe that as internet hear-say... But now 2 local friends both have e36s and both are constantly wrenching...

[briansjacobs]

I love love love turbo cars on the track. nothing like it, totally awesome. however, nothing like rebuilding those fuckers! With that said, if you want endurance, something that is always going to work and be a shit load of fun on the track, go S52/S54.

I would never trade an M50/M52 for an M20 (stock for stock) as it is just not worth the effort. I have had several E36's and so far the best advice I have seen in this thread so far is to sell everything and buy an E36 M3.

[Jonny Cash]

all you guys hating on turbos have no idea what you're talking about..

no N/A S50 could ever touch a boosted motor, properly built and tuned, in any category. But keep swapping in n/a M50 NV's for another 10whp. :roll:

Thats what im thinking.

I have never seen a turboed e30 outside of its natural habitat: non-running in a shitty apartment complex parking lot.

I sure as fucking shit have...



But as much damage i know a turbo car can do, "1990m3"'s track videos give much inspiration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7f8L8C7hSY

[Bishop]

I'm open to information Nando.... The only thing that frightened me about turbos being ON TRACK (didn't give one thought to the reliability, etc... When done right, I know it'd be ok...) would be possibly wrecking the car coming out of a corner, rolling into the gas and having the car get away from me because I wasn't expecting the tq. and the spinning off track. I was assuming a proper turbo kit would cost similar to a proper s50 swap (hence the comparison). I haven't looked TOO much at the dyno plots for say, the TCD S1 or S2 kit, but I came from the Subaru world, and that being my only two experiences with boost made me see that the curve isn't nearly as linear as a N/A motor (unless properly tuned I'm sure, blah blah blah...). I'm open to options still since I don't have the $$ to do any of this right now.

[nmlss2006]

Nando, I've seen the dyno graphs of most turbo kits for the M20: they look like particularly bad 1980s turbos and I'm sure the delivery feels as bad as it looks. I'll be glad to stand corrected when I see something different, but from what I've seen, the turbo M20s that are actually around may have more power, but they're useless below 4000 RPM and useless above 6000, with a power delivery that I'm sadly familiar with: great fun but the opposite of effective if you're actually trying to go fast. Since an E30 is all about momentum driving, as Kish pointed out, that kind of delivery is not your friend.