Tire suggestion for wet track days

[Earendil]

I don't know why people love to crap on the RS3 these days: they're the best all-around street/track summer tire I've ever used.

I'm not going to crap on the RS-3, I've never used it. But if you forced me to guess (okay, fine, I will) I'd say it's because the RS3 is getting long in the tooth. When it first came out, the reports and reviews say it's at the top of its class. However, tire tech is advancing rapidly in this area, and it's not one of the oldest tires out there in the category. I hear the next gen RS3 is coming out this summer though, and I fully expect it to again rate at or near the top for dry track performance and safe street driving.

[andrew240z]

I have some new full tread r888's for sale if you want any. Great dual purpose tire!

[Fooshe]

Hooseir H20's hands down the best wet track tire on the planet.

If you drive on the street, too....Bridgestone RE-11 gets my vote.

[Emre]

I've also been told that I'm going to slide off the road using my R888s below 50 degrees, despite it being mostly 35-45 and wet for the last couple weeks. :|

Lol. I had R888's on my E30 and drove on them through slush/sleet in 30-degF weather. I had no issues with them at all; no hydroplaning; nothing. I think the narrow sizes we run (mine were 205's) make a huge difference.

One comment was the RS-3s were useless below 60F.. well, it's almost always below 60F here. I find that really hard to believe.

Yeah, people love to talk trash without first-hand knowledge. I ran RS3's (225/45-R15) on my E30 for two seasons. Compared to the old Direzza Z1 Star Spec, they're faster in the dry, more predictable at the limit, and hold up much better to heat (no chunking). In the rain, there's very little difference.

When we measured lap times at Watkins Glen and Mosport, the RS3's put in almost identical times to the RA1 (same size). Turn-in isn't as crisp, but once they take a set, they grip just as well. Maybe there would be a difference on a heavier car with wider rubber, but on an E30 they perform about as well as the RA1.

I don't know why people love to crap on the RS3 these days: they're the best all-around street/track summer tire I've ever used.

[nando]

I'm not saying there aren't better tires for wet track use; but it's ridiculous to say the R-S3's are "scary in the wet." They're just not.

I've also been told that I'm going to slide off the road using my R888s below 50 degrees, despite it being mostly 35-45 and wet for the last couple weeks. :|

One comment was the RS-3s were useless below 60F.. well, it's almost always below 60F here. I find that really hard to believe.

[nrubenstein]

For wet use only:

Toyo R1R
Continental DW

Dry/wet:

Michelin PSS.

Note that in the only direct comparison that I am aware of, both the PSS and the DW were faster than the R1R in the wet. The DW is even faster than the Michelin in the wet, but is sloppy and slow in the dry. (It's a fantastic, quiet, pleasant riding street tire, though - highly recommended as a daily driving tire.)

[Emre]

My understanding is that the R1R is the RA1 rubber compound on the T1R carcass. So it's basically an RA1 with squishier sidewalls. Sounds perfect for a rain tire.

I've used them on my E30 and I've got a set on my 190E Cosworth. They're not bad. But I still think full-tread RA1's are better in the rain for some reason.

[tmille30]

Do Toyo R1Rs come in sizes that fit your car? Just hopped in a friends CSP Miata for an autocross last weekend in pouring down rain and the R1R is my new favorite street tire. I've had Falken RT615s and Hankook RS3s on my DSP E30 for track days at Laguna and Infineon, and for seasons of autocross. They made me happy with dry grip but I lacked confidence in them during wet conditions. The R1R tires are insane for the wet and I would recommend them. I also know a guy with an SM 240sx that dailies his car on R1Rs, has earned FTD in the wet on them, drives his car through North Idaho Winters, and has made a commute from Idaho to Minnesota in December on them. Something to consider for sure.

[Roysneon]

Oooohhh I see they're also available in 235/40R17. Now I'm tempted to try to stuff those in the back on the 9" wheels...

[Roysneon]

I'm no expert by any means but I've gotten a lot better at knowing when my car is going to start under or oversteering and reacting to it. I appreciate all the discussion.

[Earendil]

I'm not saying there aren't better tires for wet track use; but it's ridiculous to say the R-S3's are "scary in the wet." They're just not.

I'd hazard a guess that "Scary" is a mater of perspective. If you know your car, its setup, and the track, you can predict with very high accuracy what your car will do. If you throw on a tire that hampers your ability to predict, that will be scary.

I'm guessing that the OP (and myself for that matter) wouldn't find the R-S3's "scary" in the rain so much as "not as good" as the ZII. The ZII will also handle lower temps by all accounts, so if it's wet and 50 degrees, you'd probably be better off.

[Earendil]

With a track like that, I'd totally get the ZII. They stick through rain in a way I swear my cheapo les schwab all seasons did not. They won't tolerate standing water at high speed (Hydroplain easier than an all season) but frankly if there is standing water on the track, why go fast? A wet track like the one in your picture, I'd bet a set of ZII will walk away from most extreme summer tires, and do it with consistency.

Honestly, another option is to get a set of regular summish tires. They won't be as "fast", but that means that when you're playing with the limits of your car, you'll be going slower. That means that if you go "too fast" you'll spin out at a lower speed. The skill is in how you approach the limit of your car, and how you stay there. Upping the speed of your car lowers reaction time, and increases risk to your car...

...but damn, going fast is fun :D

The other thing a "regular" tire will do for you is squeals and chirp when you start slipping it. If you aren't completely tuned into your car and what a slip feels like, a tire that squeals will help you out. I've gotten the ZI Starspec to chirp at me on track (bad downshift), but it's relatively silent in a slip, and I believe that holds true for most extreme summer tires (someone correct me here if I'm wrong). I was watching an enduro once and there was an old car (civic I think) out on track that squealed like MAD around every single corner. I don't know what tires he had, but he was damn fast, and held the car at the limit. His tires were just talking the whole time :)

Okay, now I feel like I'm Friday rambling. I'll have a much stronger opion (as I said) after the 19th. If you can wait until then, I'll have more feedback on how the ZII handle cold and wet in track conditions.

(I just remembered, my sig pic is ZI's in the rain, car was very safe feeling at freeway speeds on the 4 hour freeway trip)

[Emre]

I'm not saying there aren't better tires for wet track use; but it's ridiculous to say the R-S3's are "scary in the wet." They're just not.

[Roysneon]

R-S3's are fine in the rain. I ran them on the track in eastern Canada in cold conditions and they were fine. Not as good as full-tread Toyo RA-1's, but not bad at all.

For an all around summer tire (wet or dry; street or track) the R-S3 is tough to beat.

I think that the difference here is that I'm not a very smooth or confident driver. I know that I definitely have a lot more car than driver. The track I run has two corners that can get get scary if you loose the rear end, one with pretty serious consequences. The track is old and narrow, with huge elevation changes for its size. I'm basing my decision mostly off of the suggestions from this thread. If the Hankooks are significantly cheaper I'll have to consider them, but otherwise I'm looking at the Z II's. I did have RS-2's a while back and I liked them enough to do this with them:


But that was a past life....

[Earendil]

R-S3's are fine in the rain. I ran them on the track in eastern Canada in cold conditions and they were fine. Not as good as full-tread Toyo RA-1's, but not bad at all.

For an all around summer tire (wet or dry; street or track) the R-S3 is tough to beat.

I'd counter this by saying show up to any lemons race, and it seems like half the teams are running Dunlops. I know a team that recently ran the ZII on a wet track (off and on rain) for a lemons-style race, and they were pleasently surprised at the times they could pull with them.

Ask me after next friday. I have brand new ZII on my car (E30, H&R Race) and right now my HPDE day is predicted to be cold and wet :)