Soft pedal after almost every track day

[E30_Pare]

So solution is to brake harder later. Aka your not going fast enough

[nrubenstein]

Agreed. Crappy pads are forcing you to spend too much time on the brakes, which puts far too much heat into your calipers.

After an initial bleed to get the goo out (apparently heating up the brakes really helped clean them out in a way that just flushing won't), my pedal was very solid. In spite of using up an entire set of pads in a couple session and completely trashing my rotors.

Constantly cooking the fluid like this is a pad choice/technique issue. Braking too conservatively is very hard on brakes. I learned that in my first ever track day when I kept cooking my pads even though I was going really slowly.

[Massive Lee]

Hey OP, after you have fitted better brake pads, here's a tip about braking.

- You definitely need to commit. That is no half braking. You're either hard on the brakes, or not using them. Nothing in between. When approcahing a corner, brake with a certain force at a certain marker. Then see what happens. Do you need to reaccelerate before the apex? If so, you're going too slow as you have braked too early. Please notice I didn't say you braked too hard. On the next lap, delay your braking by half a marker, using the exact same braking force. Again check if you need to give some gaz before the apex. If not, you have braked at the right marker. Repeat lap after lap. Every lap shall be done the same way. Do NOT reinvent the line or the braking markers. When you nailed a corner, then perfect the next one.

With time, you will go faster, and faster. Then you'll see if you need to adjust your braking marker, or just learn how to hold your car in corners. The e30 is a momentum car. Great handling and no power compared to a modern car. So do the best with it. Slowing down less also means you don't need to accelerate as much out of a corner, meaning you don't need 300hp to go fast.

[Earendil]

Interesting. Certainly what you guys are saying about braking technique could apply. While I knew that braking is what generated the heat, I had not considered that it's only while braking that heat can be effectively transferred to the pad. So while the same amount of energy gets soaked up by the brake system, less of it would end up in the pads and calipers, and would instead stay in the rotor. I'd guess the rotor does a better job of shedding that heat too?

So everyone thinks you can cook the pads and brake fluid without ever losing the majority of your breaks? This really breaks my understanding of brakes. I thought when one exceeds the temp limit that most pads would drop down to something closer to 30% or 40%, not stay closer to 70%-80%. At least the one time I've experienced brake fade it acted that way.

I don't think I'll have the money before my last track day for new pads, but I can certainly adjust my breaking and see if that changes how they act over the course of the day.

[Earendil]

- You definitely need to commit. That is no half braking. You're either hard on the brakes, or not using them. Nothing in between. When approaching a corner, brake with a certain force at a certain marker. Then see what happens.

Thanks for the tip. I'm still quite the noob on track, which has only been exaggerated by moving and taking advantage of a few "opportunities". I've been "on track" 6 times, but that's been spread out over 3 tracks and 2 full rain days! On my new home track I finally feel like I have the hang of it enough to focus on my braking technique, where in the past I didn't have that in the top three things to focus on for each day. The lack of antilock brakes has made me hesitant to threshold brake too, as I like my tired to be moderately round ;)

[nrubenstein]

Interesting. Certainly what you guys are saying about braking technique could apply. While I knew that braking is what generated the heat, I had not considered that it's only while braking that heat can be effectively transferred to the pad. So while the same amount of energy gets soaked up by the brake system, less of it would end up in the pads and calipers, and would instead stay in the rotor. I'd guess the rotor does a better job of shedding that heat too?

So everyone thinks you can cook the pads and brake fluid without ever losing the majority of your breaks? This really breaks my understanding of brakes. I thought when one exceeds the temp limit that most pads would drop down to something closer to 30% or 40%, not stay closer to 70%-80%. At least the one time I've experienced brake fade it acted that way.

I don't think I'll have the money before my last track day for new pads, but I can certainly adjust my breaking and see if that changes how they act over the course of the day.

The problem with the HP+ is that they go from 100%-0% with next no warning. Brake torque just falls off a cliff.

Track pads will provide both meaningfully more brake torque, and meaningfully more heat resistance. That said, obviously you haven't exceeded the heat limit of the HP+ because you aren't terrified.

Be aware that proper braking technique may well result in higher peak temperatures, even though you aren't cooking your fluid.

See what happens when you run heavy and overpowered:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=253149

After one flush, no more fade (and the fluid from the first flush literally came out gooey).

[ForcedFirebird]

The problem with the HP+ is that they go from 100%-0% with next no warning. Brake torque just falls off a cliff.

Track pads will provide both meaningfully more brake torque, and meaningfully more heat resistance. That said, obviously you haven't exceeded the heat limit of the HP+ because you aren't terrified.

This. I have been using Carbotech XP16 and love them.

[nrubenstein]

This. I have been using Carbotech XP16 and love them.

IIRC, I tried the XP9, 10, and 12, and had problems with excessive wear on all of them. In my experience, PFC pads are worth the price premium on wear alone. I save money running them AND I prefer the braking performance too.

[ForcedFirebird]

IIRC, I tried the XP9, 10, and 12, and had problems with excessive wear on all of them. In my experience, PFC pads are worth the price premium on wear alone. I save money running them AND I prefer the braking performance too.

Measure them after every track weekend. Average 1mm consumed per ~6hrs of track time (we do 4-6 20-30min sessions/day depending on sanction). Considering they are $135/axle, can't beat them with a stick as far as I'm concerned. Everyone who takes my car out comments on how good the brakes feel and they are all running dtc70. I have yet to crack a rotor with them. I warped one rotor last weekend, but believe that's because I got a flat and didn't cool down. Actually came in an access road as to not block traffic and went straight to cold pit. Parked where the hot pads sat on the rotor until the wheel was cool enough to take off to change the tire.

[Charlie]

For you guys still using Superblue/Typ 200, jesus, just upgrade your fluid already.

Switched over to Motul RBF600 years ago, haven't had a single issue with pedal fade since.

-Charlie

[ForcedFirebird]

For you guys still using Superblue/Typ 200, jesus, just upgrade your fluid already.

Switched over to Motul RBF600 years ago, haven't had a single issue with pedal fade since.

-Charlie

Almost the entire se30 field down here uses ATE, even in the enduro races.

Blue/ATE200
Dry boiling 536*f
Wet boiling 396*f

Motul 600
Dry boiling 594*f
Wet boiling 401*f

The Motul attracts more moisture, hence the lower wet boiling and more frequent changes over ATE. I have been running Motul 660 lately, only because my local supplier carries it.

Motul 660
Dry boiling 617*f
Wet boiling 400*f

[nrubenstein]

Measure them after every track weekend. Average 1mm consumed per ~6hrs of track time (we do 4-6 20-30min sessions/day depending on sanction). Considering they are $135/axle, can't beat them with a stick as far as I'm concerned. Everyone who takes my car out comments on how good the brakes feel and they are all running dtc70. I have yet to crack a rotor with them. I warped one rotor last weekend, but believe that's because I got a flat and didn't cool down. Actually came in an access road as to not block traffic and went straight to cold pit. Parked where the hot pads sat on the rotor until the wheel was cool enough to take off to change the tire.

Glad they have improved then. I was getting two days out of every set. They were cheap, but not that cheap. Switching to PFC changed everything.

I also tried the DTC70s. Good braking, but holy shit was that rotor scary. I wish I could find a picture of it.

[SGT4677]

This has been a very interesting discussion to me and you guys have made some good observations, with that said I was at the same track day as OP with a very similar car and the exact same brake setup, only we were doubled up, running every other session.

I always get some brake pedal fade but I didn't experience pad fade until the last session when I lost braking at the end of turn 3A,fortunatly I had already bled off enough speed to avoid a serious off.
I also have an E30 racecar with proper cooling ducts. I don't experience pedal fade in that car nearly as much as in the street car even though I drive it much harder.


IMO at Pacific you will use less brake as you gain experience, even though your speed increases. In 2 for example you will start to brake later and harder for a shorter time and your entry speed will increase as you gain experience. I know a lot of people in really fast cars who have been humbled by a certain 318is because the driver is so smooth and he doesn't need to use a lot of brake.

[berlow94]

What's your guys experience with Torque RT700 fluid vs. the super blue and motul?


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[Massive Lee]

Brake fluids will not fix rotor/pads/braking technique/cooling problems.

Also, so-called performance fluids may require more frequent flush because they are designed for comp, and that means flush every event. Brake fluid is highly hygroscopic. Some, more than others.