Starting a rally car build

[TobyB]

Also, the E36 rack swap is a great mod to do whether or not you're building a rally machine.

and very well may move you from the 140 hp 2wd Subaru class to the 4wd 600 hp Subaru class.

As may springs, shocks, 8- ball, blah de blah- not to pick on you, SB.

Read rules first, cry less later.

One of the (few) things I've actually gotten mostly right...

t

[djjerme]

SKID PLATE!

Please for the love all things holy make this one of your first upgrades, just so I don't have to read another "oh *%^&%, I broke my oil pan" thread..

But seriously, it will be one of the best investments to making your car somewhat reliable, and lessen the chance of having to replace the motor during the year. Beyond that, I would do as Toby suggest and just prowl the paddock for some good, knowledgeable people. Even if they don't run an E30 or a BMW, if they have been around rally for many years, they can probably get you some good advice on what areas of the car to consider when trying to upgrade for performance or safety.

[irish44j]

Not sure if you're referring to rallycross (which you can do on a reasonable budget), or stage rally (in which case you are going to need a MUCH higher budget and much more extensive safety equipment (full cage, FIA-certified seats and harnesses, among other things....this stuff is NOT/NOT cheap).

I would suggest start with rallycross and go from there. Many stage rally guys do rallycross as well, so if you go to local events you'll meet them and can find out more about stage.

See my sig for a long, long build thread about things to think about for rallycrossing an e30. e30 can be pretty competitive in rallycross (it will not be competitive in stage rally, for the most part).....

Also if you're on facebook feel free to look up the dirty e-thirties. That's our group of a few dozen e30 rallycross/rally people....

[irish44j]

get a condor speed shop power steering delete.

Though CSS is one of my sponsors, I would not suggest PS delete for rallycross (or necessarily for stage rally), personally.

I would, however, suggest an e36 rack.

[irish44j]

Suspension would be the logical next step. New control arms, tie rods, subframe, and trailing arm bushings are obvious first steps. But also replace the motor, transmission, and differential mounts. Then go for better springs and sway bars. This being essentially a track car think H&R race, Bilstien Sports or Koni SA's, camber plates, and rear toe/camber adjustments as the minimum coupled with 22/19mm sways. Oh, and because it is a rally car, invest in a heavy duty steel skid plate.

Then there is a safety stuff. A well built 6-point cage, real race seats with halo protection, 6-point harness, and HANS device should be the minimum.

Ditch the 8 ball, rebuild the shifter and use a tall Jaffster shift knob.

H&R race and Billie sports would be the opposite of the way to go. Most rallycross cars run stock or other soft BUT TALL springs, with HDs. Stage rally cars tend to use coilovers with tall stand height and various rates. The setup is really not very similar at all to a track car setup. Many rallycross e30/e36s actually delete one or both swaybars (I use a stock 318 bar up front and a stock 325 bar in the rear personally). Larger swaybars would, in most cases, be the wrong approach for rally (depending on surface).

IIRC NASA Rally/Rally America specs require a considerably more substantial cage than is required for road racing. Since it's going to be a few more years until I start converting my car to stage I haven't looked into it too much, but for example a SpecE30 cage needs additional structure to be legal in RA, from what I've heard.

Frankly I think the OP needs to start with rallycross, unless he's Richie Rich. Stage is not a starting point for a 17-year old who says he has pretty limited mechanical know-how, unless a lot of money is involved and he can hire people who know what they're doing during an event (and don't forget a co-driver who knows how to read stage notes!). Stage guys need to know how to fix everything on the car in a cold/snowy field with some basic hand tools. I don't even pretend to be to a level for stage rally myself (and I have a pretty substantial automotive background).

[Nike30]

8 ball shifter lol.

Hey I bought it that way. It's not something I would have done but I can think of worse things that have been done to cars by previous owners.

Kingston thanks for the forum link. Theres a lot of good stuff on there.

Henryki, whoever said that increased horsepower? I think you have me confused with some civic guy who saw fast and furious and thought that a new paint job and neon lights would make his car something people could actually tolerate.

And for everyone else thanks for the replies, I don't have the money for a full cage right now so I think i'm just going to go with a bar and harnesses, and then get HD's and possibly coil overs. And yes I'm going to ditch the 8 ball, its kinda annoying I just figured you all would get a kick out of it lol.

[phenryiv1]

I ran H&R OE Sports on Bilstein HD for my rallyX car and it was stiff enough to cut out some of the lean but had some "give" in the choppy stuff.

I don't recommend the PS delete. Maybe you are good with it but one bad kickback form the wheel and you my spend some time icing fingers or thumbs.

I went with Condor solid motor and trans mounts and CABs but urethane for the rear end bushings (subframe, RTAB, diff) due to the pounding that they take. You want the bushings to give- not the car. I liked the solid offset CABs but I was glad to have the rear bushings have some give. Don't get me wrong- they were far tighter than stock.

I have driven cars with both the stock e30 rack and the e36 rack and the e36 rack is better in nearly every way. Don't worry if it is not am M3 rack- the regular e36 rack is a huge step in the right direction.

Tires are your best friend. Drop the money and get 14" rally tires (I recommend a 175 width) and put them on a spare set of bottlecaps (which are virtually indestructible). Just don't drive to/from events on them or they will be toast in a hurry.

[phenryiv1]

H&R race and Billie sports would be the opposite of the way to go. Most rallycross cars run stock or other soft BUT TALL springs, with HDs. Stage rally cars tend to use coilovers with tall stand height and various rates. The setup is really not very similar at all to a track car setup. Many rallycross e30/e36s actually delete one or both swaybars (I use a stock 318 bar up front and a stock 325 bar in the rear personally). Larger swaybars would, in most cases, be the wrong approach for rally (depending on surface).

Agree

Frankly I think the OP needs to start with rallycross, unless he's Richie Rich. Stage is not a starting point for a 17-year old who says he has pretty limited mechanical know-how, unless a lot of money is involved and he can hire people who know what they're doing during an event (and don't forget a co-driver who knows how to read stage notes!). Stage guys need to know how to fix everything on the car in a cold/snowy field with some basic hand tools. I don't even pretend to be to a level for stage rally myself (and I have a pretty substantial automotive background).

Agree

[Frog]

I wish we had more rally in Georgia.. I was going to build mine to be a rally slut, but due to the lack of rally events, I am making it a track car instead.

[Gary Horneck]

You have rally programs around Georgia. Sweetwater TN (ETR), MidGA RX in the Macon GA, and TVR here in AL, running at Hollytree Offroad.

[Nike30]

Irish44j thanks for the advice. I am going to start with Colorado Rallycross until I got much more race experience as well as mechanical knowledge. But the eventual goal for this car is for stage rally. For CO Rally the courses are mostly dirt and tarmac. I know you said that a lot of rally drivers take out the sway bars. Sorry if this is a noob question, but what would be the benefit of that? Would it allow for faster cornering?

phenryiv1, thanks for the advice. I do have several bottlecaps and was planning on getting some good tires. Also I had not thought of putting an e36 rack on but i can definitely see how it would be a lot better. I also still have the PS unit so I will probably put that back in. From what I had heard, taking it out gives better steering response and allows for more control and precision, but I se what you mean with the kickbacks and I'll probably put it back in. Thanks

[UserError]

Nike, the reason rally cars don't usually run sway bars on dirt is because swaybars tie the two suspension arms together, reducing how much they can move independently of one another. When you're off road, you want as much suspension articulation as possible. As for the E36 rack, if the rules allow it, definitely do it. I've been running mine for about 3 years now, and it's definitely a big step up from the original rack.

[Earendil]

I'm going to come at this from the point of view of learning to track a car instead of rally it, so I'm going to suggest strategy instead of particular components.

As hard as it may be, do the absolutely bare minimum to get yourself into a car in an event, after making sure the car is safe and reliable. Too many people spend too much time and money building cars that never see an event, because either the car "isn't quite ready" or the driver ran out of money.

Strategies for doing this:

• Leave the go-faster and "win" modifications until later. For example, don't get hung up on the perfect steering rack right now.
• Build up to where you want to be. While I'd personally like to race in Pro-3 some day, I know that track days are something my budget and car allow for today. You may be aiming for Rally America, but look for the smallest local event that gets you into a car. They will often be cheaper, safer, and filled with people that just want to share knowledge.
• Look for the possibility of a ride along. This has everything to do with the type of event, and often involves hanging around a lot and getting to know people. On the plus side it's often free-ish and will give you an idea about what it is you're headed for, instead of the romanticized dream.

That first point is one of the hardest. No one (well, few of us) want to show up to an event as "the new guy" and be surrounded by all things better. We also want to be able to point to something and say "I'm trying!", and modifications to a car are the easiest thing to point at, and seem like the ideal thing. At least at track days, instructors will be more impressed if you say all the suspension rubber has been replaced than if you say you put an expensive coilover setup on the car.

Finally, chances are that no matter how much you try, you'll STILL regret spending money on go fast parts. You'll end up wishing you hadn't bought the unnecessary fancy part, and had instead spent money on the required part that just broke because, though it has two million miles on it, you thought it would last one more event :)

[SlapDash]

As a stage rallying E30 owner (see slapdashracing.com), I agree with a lot of the points here. Especially the skid plate. I competed in five stage rallies and finished two. Oil pans don't just break, they shatter.

On my car, I have protected the oil pan with a mini roll cage around the pan, a giant 1/4-inch thick aircraft-aluminum skid plate and two-dollar Whacky Noodles to keep the Maine rocks out of the delicate bits.

Bill Doyle of Cage This (cagethis.com) built my roll cage, skid plate and oil pan cage and let me tell ya, spend the money on safety first. We rolled his E30 four times and not only walked away, but put the car on the trailer by ourselves after a three-hour round trip back to Service to get our tow rig (see story here: http://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...k-roll-over%85).

My cage goes through the firewall and attaches to reinforced strut towers and through the rear and attaches to reinforced rear shock mounts.

I use a Momo steering wheel, Momo Start 2007 seats (cheapest, legal seats available at the time), G-Force 6-point harnesses, G-Force Noggin Protector and a borrowed HANS device (cagethis.com).

For mods budget has kept it simple: 4.10 diff, urethane mounts everywhere, reinforced motor mounts, gas tank protection, Spal fan, K&N 'stock' drop-in filter, BavAuto chip, aux lights, Bilstein HDs, stock brake discs, stock brake pads (the latter two used at that), etc.

Tires are DMack gravel on 15-inch D-Force wheels.

I've retained the power steering (makes life easier), but ditched the radio, interior, etc. I run G2 in Rally America locally and 2WD in NASA locally (Maine and New York). An E36 rack is on the list of things I want/need.

Like others have said too, you do need to know how to fix sh*t in your race suit, wearing your helmet and HANS, 'cause as soon as you take it off, that technically tells the officials you're done.

At our last outing, my co-driver and E30 Guru was able to re-mount a severely dislodged coil (it ripped off the fender well and tried to kill itself by jumping on the headers) by using the stock trunk-mounted tool kit and a ziptie.

As far as exhaust, because of local laws and rally rules, I had to retain my cat, but we straight-piped the stock exhaust downstream of the cat and it sounds pretty killer. It has that vintage 'rally rasp' without sounding too obnoxious.

As far as sway bars, I picked up a UUC front, but have eliminated the rear. Driving without the rear makes a HUGE difference in the right direction. Not sure the technical term, but that mofo digs in so much better. Control is so much better. I feel less like I've going to spring-load off the road.

Anywho, that's my two cents from someone who's been in the trenches... and ditches... and puddles... and trees... and rocks... and...