Suspension setup for the track

[whitebulat22]

Really liking the info in here.

There were other engineering-y reasons why they sucked, but unless one is a shock nerd that's not relevant.

I may have strong feelings on this matter, but the proliferation of cheap crap being passed off as quality combined with the lack of knowledge about suspensions is troublesome. Hence, education!

May I ask where to read up on becoming a shock nerd? So I can help with the education thing maybe!

[Bimmerman325i]

Yup, and that doesn't get into the nittier grittier detail about shock valving and how these cheap brands aren't even consistent there.

Case in point, back when I was involved in Subaru land, someone bought new BCs or Megans (same level of junk) and then got them dynoed on a shock dyno. I think these had 32 clicks or something stupid like that of adjustment, and lo and behold, to get them to respond the same way on the dyno required mismatches of up to 10 clicks side to side and front to rear-- and this was at the same temperature and testing conditions! There were other engineering-y reasons why they sucked, but unless one is a shock nerd that's not relevant.

Konis and Bilsteins, which are the established players in the market, are super consistent and repeatable. Just because sideways-cap strawberry-vaping stance bro at the Friday night tilted-windshield-sticker-oogling fest looks down on them for not being 32 way adjustable and shiny does NOT mean they're bad. They're actually drastically superior to most any shock near their price range.

It's also why GCs and TCKs use Koni shocks as a basis. Those two respective kits (plus the Bilstein PSS9s) consistently win championships on the racetrack and autocross courses. Megans and BCs and similar level crap win the "hey look I broke another oil pan, aren't I cool? Let me post about it on instatwitter, #attentionwhore #hashtag" championship.

I may have strong feelings on this matter, but the proliferation of cheap crap being passed off as quality combined with the lack of knowledge about suspensions is troublesome. Hence, education!

[Joeyz31]

Just some input here with the whole isc situation. If you are having a tough time time understanding what everyone is saying as far as they are "not as good" as a none adjustable koni or bilstein... consistency is a great way to measure a difference. This is a tough one for a lot of people and quite honestly I think why there are a million of these coilover companies out there making a sub $1k coilover that looks cool as hell. They survive because the primary function of how the shock works is not visible. you are going into the quality of the product blind with the exception of years of experience and customer backing (bilstein, koni. JRZ, etc..)

When I had a Miata, I needed a stop gap solution to my shock spring combo. I ended up with a brand new set of megan coilovers that came to me with 16 way adjustable dampning and a pretty look. Upon putting them on, they felt absolutely awesome over what I had previously. However, it did not take long to realize that a cheap dampener makes all of the difference. This is no joke, 60 degree day... casual driving the adjustment worked awesome and the car felt great. 30 degree day, full soft and the car was so stiff over bumps that it felt like a rock. 90 degree day, full hard and it felt like I was driving a wet noodle.

There is no telling what was going on with the seals/ fluid inside of those things. I switched to bilstiens and swift springs ( for almost the same price) and it feels the same every day. My point.. on a race track, things heat up as you go around the track/speed up. Your car could literally feel different as the session goes on. You do not want that.

[djjerme]

I actually ran bone stock Bilsteins for the first season in my home built coilover setup on the PRO3 car. They weren't half bad, and it was kinda nice not having any knobs to fiddle with and get wrong! :)

You can't go wrong with Billies on an E30 as a default..

[Emre]

^ Good advice on the Bilstein/J-stock setup, but you would need to have them re-valved for the J-stocks. Stock Bilstein Sport valving can't handle the J-stock rates.

Not really. I ran stock Bilstein Sports with J-Stock springs for a couple of seasons before getting them revalved to Firehawk spec. I knew a few other guys who did this as well about 15 years ago when we were all pretty broke and trying to stretch every dollar.

I was doing 20+ track days a year in those days and did tons of street and track driving without any issues. As long as the Bilsteins are relatively new (not worn out), they'll hold up fine for quite a while.

[djjerme]

Before any of this or spending any money - how much "experience" do you have on track?

I can probably bet that the current suspension on your car is not what's holding it back..

Are you going to go actual "racing", or just be content with Track Days? Because going real racing (I mean wheel to wheel) is a whole different ball park from just turning laps as fast as you can..

More often then not, if you are making this jump, then there is restrictions on what you can use for setup. Notice I said setup. It's not just a matter of jamming some coilovers on an tossing the car around (though some of us pretty much do that anyways.) The entire car is a setup and affects handling: Suspension, weight placement, aero..etc.

Everything affects everything else.

How serious are you at this, and how much time and money are you willing to put in to this?

[Jb325is]

^ Good advice on the Bilstein/J-stock setup, but you would need to have them re-valved for the J-stocks. Stock Bilstein Sport valving can't handle the J-stock rates. Good news is Bilstein re-valves are pretty inexpensive and you'd end up with a pretty awesome matched setup

[Emre]

I currently have bilstien shocks/struts on the car with eibach pro kit lowering springs.

If you've already got Bilstein Sports on the car, then just buy Turner Motorsports "J-Stock" springs (copies of the old BMW Gruppe N springs). Then get some camber plates from K-Mac or Ground Control. Done. That's a proven, race-winning setup.

I can get the isc's for $790. Thsts the only reason why I'm considering them.

There's a reason why you can get them so cheaply.

I know 2 people who know how to properly set them up for the track also.

Anyone who recommends ISC obviously does not race. I would be very skeptical if they then turned around and claimed to "know how to properly set them up for the track."

Go to any BMW CCA CR, NASA, SCCA, or other race where people run BMWs. See how many people are on ISC coilovers.

[Kev]

potstirBut ICS has track valving?

[Bimmerman325i]

You've asked this three times now, the answer hasn't changed.

They are cheap. Expect them to perform like cheap bottom-tier generic coilovers. They will damp bumps and suspend mass, but they will not be the same caliber as KONI yellows or likely Bilsteins+springs.

A full coilover kit, including springs, dampers, spring adjusters, camber plates, and shock mounts, that costs less than just good dampers does (aka...KONI/bilstein) will not perform on the same level or even close.

This doesn't mean go buy a $5k setup. This is to encourage you to think critically. How can they sell a full suspension for the cost of a set of Konis? What are you compromising on? Who else that tracks, seriously, in your model car, runs them? Do some research into what is available for your car, at your budget, and for your needs.

If all you want is to be low and get the mad instagram twitter likes and hashtags, those coils will work. If you want your car to handle well on a track and not suck on the street, I would look elsewhere and at roughly double that price point.

What is your budget? How will you use the car? Why do you think your current suspension is insufficient?

[Cbruh]

I currently have bilstien shocks/struts on the car with eibach pro kit lowering springs. I'm in between buying h&r race springs or isc coilovers. I know 2 people who know how to properly set them up for the track also. I can get the isc's for $790. Thsts the only reason why I'm considering them. I was looking on their page and looked them up for my car. Here's the info. Let me know what you think.

http://iscsuspension-na.com/bmw-suspensioncoilovers-e30-e90-z3z4-solutions/#!/BMW-E30-Adjustable-Coilover-Suspension-Kit/p/28352913/category=12617116

[Jb325is]

There are a lot of posts on this subject, but as a quick primer:

Bilstein Sports + H&R Race springs is an excellent track suspension (it's the SpecE30 race suspension!) Koni Yellows + Springs is also a popular and good combo.

If you're looking to waste your money and hate your back/kidneys: JOM, BC Racing, Megan Racing, insert-fly-by-night-company-here, Raceland, Stance, etc. <$1000 price point. Buy springs and shocks instead.

If you want street suspension that is made for low and looks not fast and track: ISC/ST/KW V1, $1000 ish.

If you're looking for something adjustable in rebound and ride height: Ground Control SA or TC Kline SA or KW V2 or Bilstein PSS9, all between $1500-2000. AST I would put in this category if you can buy them any more.

If you're looking for affordable and good quality rebound and compression adjustment and know what that affects TC Kline DA, KW V3, GC DAs if they make them still. $2000-$3000

If you're looking for a premium single adjustable damper, or are looking to do this once and be done: MCS SA, JRZ RS1. $3000-$4000 for a complete kit

If you want premium damper capability with rebound and compression adjustments: MCS DA, JRZ RS2, Ohlins DA, $5000-$8000

If you're competing at the pointy end of the grid for actual money or championships: Same suspects, triple adjustables, $7000+

The more you spend, the better the damper is at controlling sharp bumps and blowing off over impacts, which translates to better grip. Better dampers also can be turned very soft and compliant for better rain/wet track grip. They also manage tire contact patch better. This is all with one huge caveat: the car and suspension must be set up properly, otherwise you've wasted your money and time.

None of the suspensions you list are appreciably better for someone starting to track their car than good springs and struts. You don't need coilovers until you've got quite a few track days under your belt, at which point you'll be more able to identify deficiencies in your car and solve them. And ISC/H&R coils have pretty much zero people running them hard and frequently, on track. There is a big reason why most track folk flock to the same three or four brands, depending on the price point.

Bolting on $10,000 suspension won't make the car any faster if you don't know how to drive; in fact, it will likely make it a whole hell of a lot harder to drive fast.

The "best" track coilovers on a relatively low budget will be Ground Control with Koni Race dampers (DA if you can afford it; but SA is good enough probably).

The quality of the dampers is the most critical thing. Simple Koni SA (yellows) are better than low-end coilovers using junk dampers.

Your friend sounds like someone who doesn't know enough about the subject to give any advice. Those ISC's are for the "street tuning" crowd...not serious track use.

Great advice here! Pretty much sums up everything I was going to say. All of the chinese made stuff (BC, Megan, Fortune/Broadway, K-Sport, etc etc) is fine for the street and yes, you can drive around on it at the track but it will become a limiting factor sooner than a set of Koni's or Bilsteins would. If you already had a set I'd say go for it, you'll figure it out, but if you're buying something specifically to track the car just spend a little more money the first time and you will be happy.

Also, make sure you get adjustable swaybar endlinks and make sure you swaybars are clean/greased and not bound up... Corner balancing would be wise as well. A large percentage of people just buy coilovers, eyeball the ride height/measure the arches and go and it just doesn't work that way.

[TobyB]

for what?

help us help you, here.

t

[Emre]

The "best" track coilovers on a relatively low budget will be Ground Control with Koni Race dampers (DA if you can afford it; but SA is good enough probably).

Well the thing is I can get kw coils for $530 and isc's for $790. That's why I was considering those two.

The quality of the dampers is the most critical thing. Simple Koni SA (yellows) are better than low-end coilovers using junk dampers.

I haven't really heard of isc but my friend has the track dampering isc's on his 2.5RS and says they are really good.

Your friend sounds like someone who doesn't know enough about the subject to give any advice. Those ISC's are for the "street tuning" crowd...not serious track use.

[dkexige]

quick primer:

Good info, thanks.