trackable street car?

[e9nine]

..... I'd rather be a better driver than have a better car......... No matter how fast you've driven on the street, its irrelevant on the track.

QFT :up:

[cwsqbm]

For a total noob at the track, I'd suggest a bone stock car with fresh pads, fluids, and everything else in as good-as-new condition. I'd rather be a better driver than have a better car. Then mod as you uncover weakness. No matter how fast you've driven on the street, its irrelevant on the track.

[speedblind]

since everyone else has an opinion, i'll give you mine :)

you've stated you are just going out to have fun. you are also new to track driving. seeing as you are driving an e30, my guess is that you don't light cigars with benjamins.

with those three things in mind, here are my recommendations:

suspension: specE30 kit. it's a great place to start and you can sell it easily should you feel the need to step up to something else. fixed camber plates are all you'll need if this is mostly a weekend/track car.

brakes: good fluid and a set of autox or track pads. i run hawk hp+ pads right now and they do a good job for my ability level. stainless lines are something to look into, especially on old cars like ours. sure, the rotors are small and the calipers are single-piston, but they'll do fine for you. i'd also suggest a brake cooling kit, as the forced air really helps extend the life of your pads and rotors.

tires: important! run nice street tires at first. you will learn more about car control with these than jumping straight to r-comps. when you burn a set or two up, then go to r-comps.

that's it really. put all the money you saved NOT buying all that other stuff into keeping your car mechanically sound and driving schools. you WILL need to put money into rotors, pads, and tires! the e30 is a good car to start learning on as they are a pretty good package out of the box. i am on my 3rd year of DE's with my mostly stock m3 and the car is still faster than i am. i've ridden shotgun with my hot-shoe instructor friend and he embarrased me.

Print this out and stick it on your refrigerator. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[jht3]

I would also recommend that you don't modify your car too much before you begin. First get experience and see how you like it. Racing is not cheap and you might find the constant maintenance (your labour and spending money) will change your mind about the sport.

Whether you need big brakes or not depends on your competition I suppose. If you're just going to race other E30s with sad brakes, then there is no need to upgrade.

However if you have to race against some more modern cars it is almost compulsory that you upgrade your brakes. I have raced against some turbocharged 2.7 E30s with my M3 CSL ; I cannot catch or pass them on the straights, passing in the corner is too risky, I can however fly past them in the braking zones (even the ones that have upgraded to E36 M3 brakes). Once past, every heavy braking zone you see them disappear further in the mirror.

So please, don't let anyone convince you that brakes are a waste of money. Even if you don't need them to be competitive, they still make track racing a lot safer.

he never said anything about racing. who cares if you outbrake others in a DE?

also, no one said don't spend money on brakes. actually what i said was spend money on getting the stock braking system back up to spec.

but i agree completely that the poster should hold off on huge purchases until he outgrows the stock parts. this way you also get to see the improvements with each upgrade

[Andreas]

I would also recommend that you don't modify your car too much before you begin. First get experience and see how you like it. Racing is not cheap and you might find the constant maintenance (your labour and spending money) will change your mind about the sport.

Whether you need big brakes or not depends on your competition I suppose. If you're just going to race other E30s with sad brakes, then there is no need to upgrade.

However if you have to race against some more modern cars it is almost compulsory that you upgrade your brakes. I have raced against some turbocharged 2.7 E30s with my M3 CSL ; I cannot catch or pass them on the straights, passing in the corner is too risky, I can however fly past them in the braking zones (even the ones that have upgraded to E36 M3 brakes). Once past, every heavy braking zone you see them disappear further in the mirror.

So please, don't let anyone convince you that brakes are a waste of money. Even if you don't need them to be competitive, they still make track racing a lot safer.

[jht3]

since everyone else has an opinion, i'll give you mine :)

you've stated you are just going out to have fun. you are also new to track driving. seeing as you are driving an e30, my guess is that you don't light cigars with benjamins.

with those three things in mind, here are my recommendations:

suspension: specE30 kit. it's a great place to start and you can sell it easily should you feel the need to step up to something else. fixed camber plates are all you'll need if this is mostly a weekend/track car.

brakes: good fluid and a set of autox or track pads. i run hawk hp+ pads right now and they do a good job for my ability level. stainless lines are something to look into, especially on old cars like ours. sure, the rotors are small and the calipers are single-piston, but they'll do fine for you. i'd also suggest a brake cooling kit, as the forced air really helps extend the life of your pads and rotors.

tires: important! run nice street tires at first. you will learn more about car control with these than jumping straight to r-comps. when you burn a set or two up, then go to r-comps.

that's it really. put all the money you saved NOT buying all that other stuff into keeping your car mechanically sound and driving schools. you WILL need to put money into rotors, pads, and tires! the e30 is a good car to start learning on as they are a pretty good package out of the box. i am on my 3rd year of DE's with my mostly stock m3 and the car is still faster than i am. i've ridden shotgun with my hot-shoe instructor friend and he embarrased me.

[Massive Lee]

He, he, ddavidv, at least we also agree on 50%. You are right to mention that a skilled driver will make even a lawnmower faster around the track than an unexperienced driver with great machinery. But as much as I am against building monster machines, I would recommend a bone stock car perhaps only for the first few events (to get the feel), and then start addressing the several flaws a stock e30 will have when used at speeds and conditions it was not meant to drive on a long period.

[ddavidv]

I will respectfully disagree with about 50% of what Massive Lee recommends. Having progressed from bone stock car to just about ready to take the licensing exam, I'll stick with my recommendations. If you've got a bottomless trust fund and like spending money/modifying your car, there is no harm going the path he suggests. You will, indeed, wind up with a superior piece of equipment for the intended purpose. But it will cost you.

I've built a car the way I wanted, and then taken a bath on it when I decided I wanted to move further up the Pyramid Of Speed and found it wasn't legal to run in anything.

I've also run modified cars against bone stock cars that were driven by guys way more talented than I, and been OWNED. Skills/talent will trump equipment most every time.

[JRKOUPE]

opinions...

ddavid and massive both have excellent responses........altho a bit differing!


Just goes to show you how this hobby/passion has many ways to look at it........ nothing is really NEEDED...but safety should be your first concern....but it usually isnt among newbies....or even oldies........


............really good info on this thread......but varying...final decision is your obviously.............

about that when you've done a half dozen track events and are getting fast enough to really hit the tire wall hard. :p

I agree with your entire above statement, but this one section I will just slightly differ. Maybe tracks up there are slower, but even going easy at Willow Springs here in SoCal puts you at 120. More than enough speed to cause a problem.

[Massive Lee]

Hi JD.

Let's assume that you want to do HPDE's (not racing) but still want to drive the car to work and not be bothered by the track-personality of your car. It is very well possible. You must first eliminate the weak spots when you track a stock e30: soft suspension that allows too much body lean and wheel camber changes. H&R race sprins or Eibach Pro springs will do the job but they are a very soft compromise. You will like them for a year. No more. Turner's J Stock springs are excellent for racing, but a PITA when on the street. Way too stiff and too low. Contrary to what a few have expressed, GC coil-overs are the efficicient way to go. But on stock e30 struts, not M3. Get front rates with 425# and rear 650#. That set-up is not too stiff for the street, not too soft for the track. I run that on my e30 M3. I used to run Eibach's on my e30 H23 and found it great around town but too soft on track. And remember that the H23 is 350# lighter than the US model, which stiffened the suspension.

One irritant very weak spot in the e30 is the brakes. Girling calipers are the worst (look at them with a front wheel removed while a friend presses the brakes: the huge deflection explains why they are lousy. Ate calipers are a bit better, but still wimpy. The assumption that having more brake is not needed is pretty discussable. Excellent drivers can do with weak brakes as they better control their car. A beginner doesn't have that option. Sure, you can buy $180usd PF97 pads and $350usd air ducts and plates (BTW That is already half the price of a BBK, who ever you buy it from) but you will still remain with tiny rotors and soft calipers. And no modulation. Improving brakes modulation, thanks to stiff calipers, seems to have been erased from the list of suggestions.

Extra safety is never an option. Do you need a rollbar? Perhaps not. Can it save your life if the car rolls. Sure it could. And having a rollbar will allow you to safely run a 5 point harness.

With all respect to e30Spec formula. It is a great formula, but saying that you SHOULD build your car with it in focus, is not relevant. You want to have fun. Not comply to a race class to which you will not probably participate. Especially that you intend to still drive your car on the street on a daily basis.

As an instructor with BMWCCA, BMWCC, Audi and PCA, I don't ask my students what suspension they run in order to modify my teaching. I always ask them to understand what their car does, whatever the tires or suspension, and adapt. Teaching is about the driver, not the suspension. But if the student wants to modify things or car comportments, then it can be discussed. I would not teach a student differently wether they run Ireland, spec-e30 or Turner suspension. The car will tell you what it is capable of after a lap. No need to ask about the hardware underneath.

[ddavidv]

I built a Spec E30 car, and it is still street legal.
My prior car was an '86 Audi GT that I spent waaayy too much money on trying to make it a compromise car (street/track) that wound up being good at neither.
My comments are to help you, not offend you, so please take them that way.
You aren't ready for coil overs. You don't have a set of corner scales, and know zero about setting up a car. Yes, I know, you can learn. But my opinion is you'll never really realize the benefits from them, will piss a lot of money away buying them, and would be just as happy with a SE30 suspension anyway.
My car sits nice and low. I wouldn't want it any lower, simply because of ground clearance issues. It's very neutral handling and easy to drive, even in the rain. You can build your car with this setup and then, if you decide later "Those morons on R3V were wrong" and want to get coil overs, you'll have NO trouble selling the H&R's to a Spec E30 builder.
Beyond that, don't waste money on big brakes. You don't need them. Proper pads will solve any braking problem you may find you have. Sounds too easy, I know, but when you run a set of track pads in that environment you will be stunned how well your car can stop.
5 lug may open up some wheel selections for you but 4x100 wheels are cheap.
Roll bar: I wouldn't get ahead of myself with that. You really should do rollover protection in concert with a proper race seat and harnesses. I'd worry about that when you've done a half dozen track events and are getting fast enough to really hit the tire wall hard. :p
Trust me on this last point: spend the money going to driving events, not on your car. Just this past weekend I unofficially 'raced' a guy in my HPDE session with a bone stock E30, and we were nearly dead even. He was actually a bit quicker than I.
Reason: he was a much better driver. The equipment didn't hold him back. Nothing makes you smile more than out-driving something with more potential than what you have simply because you paid attention to your instructors.

[e30sd]

fitting 19's on a non-m would be a bitch. besides, 225/19's would suck. 15/16 would be perfect.

[CarsSuck]

well, my car is a DD. Were it not, things would be different.

I say do the coilovers. It gives you some flexibility and performance potential. I wish I had. Replacing all the bushings is a great idea, just make sure to give lots of consideration to the materials.

The one point where i really disagree is on the wheels. five lug or not 19" wheels will probably hurt performance. 15 or 16 would be best.

[VAPORBLADE]

Man - you all have given me much to think about. I am probably not going to be running in spec e30, but will run fun at scda.

My goal is to make a really nice car, that can preform. It is not a DD, nor will it ever be. Maybe a friday car and track car. I want it to run well, corner well, and look good. :) At the same time, I want to learn more and more about track driving.