Sparco harness Bar install

[notoriousracing]

Man that Jgood sure is smart, the man knows everything, including where my body will go in every possible accident scenario.

[jlevie]

I'm not arguing stock seat vs. fixed back seat in rollover situations. I'm saying the idea of the 3 pt belt is that your body can move out of the way. Not willingly, but it can/will be moved as the roof collapses. Where as with a 4 pt belt you will be stuck upright and the roof will cave onto your head (no matter what the seat is).

What I remember from sled tests in the late 70's is that there's little to no difference in body/head position with respect to 3 vs 4-6 point belts if the upper torso remains under the three-point belt. Whether your torso is still under the cross-chest belt in a roll-over is going to be a function of what happens before the car inverts.

On the street the vast majority of accidents don't result in roll-overs. A cross-chest belt works well in a frontal impact, but less well in a quartering impact as the upper torso tends to twist out from under the belt. 4-6 point harnesses work equally well for any impact angle. On that basis I'd take my chances w/respect to a roll-over as that's a low percentage event as compared to the better protection 4-6 point belts provide in the much more common accident scenarios.

[Hallen]

I'm not arguing stock seat vs. fixed back seat in rollover situations. I'm saying the idea of the 3 pt belt is that your body can move out of the way. Not willingly, but it can/will be moved as the roof collapses. Where as with a 4 pt belt you will be stuck upright and the roof will cave onto your head (no matter what the seat is).

I'm not talking about the impact, I'm talking about the roofs final position when collapsed vs. your body position. If the 4 pt holds you in a certain place, and the roof collapses into that same place, there is a problem. The 3 pt allows your body to be slumped over.

I do see your point, and in certain rare cases, it might help. Your factory seat belts will lock in that kind of crash and I suspect that if the roof does come down, it won't matter much if you are using a full harness or the factory belts.

Lets just both agree to not test any of these theories, ever. OK? :D

[JGood]

That is just silly. It is a false sense of security to think that a seat back will collapse and save your neck and head from damage in the event that the roof collapses with that much force. If the roof over your head collapses with that much force, enough force to collapse a seat back, then guess what is transferring that force to the seat? Your head and neck is what is taking the force. By the time your seat back collapses, you won't care because everything above your collar bone will be mush.

If you think you can lay down fast enough, then you are wrong. If you can, you are not secure enough in your seat and you will end up flopping around the cabin so much you'll feel like you are in a blender. We are talking about huge g forces here; so much so that you aren't going to be willfully moving in any direction. You'll just be thrown around.

Fixed back seats without a roll bar are not inherently more dangerous than factory seats. 99% of the time, they will be more safe because they will hold you in place more securely. A roll bar system and a fixed back seat is much better for track use, for sure. Club rules that I have seen do not allow you to use a harness without ASM of some sort and if it is a 5 or 6 point system, you must have a harness bar. However, they don't make any restrictions on fixed back seats used with factory harnesses or the Ralley type systems like Schroth makes. The reason for that is what I stated above.

So, to put it simply, in a catastrophic roll-over event with no roll bar, you have one hell of a lot more to worry about than your seat back. (and btw, there are no stock seats made that have the main frame and head rest higher than my head is in a car. I'm only 6'2")

I'm not arguing stock seat vs. fixed back seat in rollover situations. I'm saying the idea of the 3 pt belt is that your body can move out of the way. Not willingly, but it can/will be moved as the roof collapses. Where as with a 4 pt belt you will be stuck upright and the roof will cave onto your head (no matter what the seat is).

I'm not talking about the impact, I'm talking about the roofs final position when collapsed vs. your body position. If the 4 pt holds you in a certain place, and the roof collapses into that same place, there is a problem. The 3 pt allows your body to be slumped over.

[Hallen]

I was too.

Explain to me what happens toy your head when your roof caves in when you are wearing a 4 point harness without rollover protection.

And what happens to your head with a 3 point system? The idea is that it will moves out of the way.

If you think your chances of survival in a frontal impact are so much greater that it offsets the fact that you likely will be crushed in a rollover, then by all means go right ahead and strap yourself in place.

I enjoy walking.

That is just silly. It is a false sense of security to think that a seat back will collapse and save your neck and head from damage in the event that the roof collapses with that much force. If the roof over your head collapses with that much force, enough force to collapse a seat back, then guess what is transferring that force to the seat? Your head and neck is what is taking the force. By the time your seat back collapses, you won't care because everything above your collar bone will be mush.

If you think you can lay down fast enough, then you are wrong. If you can, you are not secure enough in your seat and you will end up flopping around the cabin so much you'll feel like you are in a blender. We are talking about huge g forces here; so much so that you aren't going to be willfully moving in any direction. You'll just be thrown around.

Fixed back seats without a roll bar are not inherently more dangerous than factory seats. 99% of the time, they will be more safe because they will hold you in place more securely. A roll bar system and a fixed back seat is much better for track use, for sure. Club rules that I have seen do not allow you to use a harness without ASM of some sort and if it is a 5 or 6 point system, you must have a harness bar. However, they don't make any restrictions on fixed back seats used with factory harnesses or the Ralley type systems like Schroth makes. The reason for that is what I stated above.

So, to put it simply, in a catastrophic roll-over event with no roll bar, you have one hell of a lot more to worry about than your seat back. (and btw, there are no stock seats made that have the main frame and head rest higher than my head is in a car. I'm only 6'2")

[z31maniac]

You guys trust a 20+ years old factory seat belt when you know very well that harnesses are supposed to be retired from duty even without an impact every 5 years?

Seems silly to me.

The 4pt with ASM looks like a pretty good option, but it's really too bad that anything other than a factory supplied DOT approved belt is illegal.

So is anything that affects the emissions system (injectors, chip, exhaust), excessing lowering depending on your states headlight height laws, etc.

[notoriousracing]

You guys trust a 20+ years old factory seat belt when you know very well that harnesses are supposed to be retired from duty even without an impact every 5 years?

Seems silly to me.

The 4pt with ASM looks like a pretty good option, but it's really too bad that anything other than a factory supplied DOT approved belt is illegal.

[kishg]

Yes... You have a point there...

But wouldn't you agree that the Schroth Rallye harnesses are better than the 3 point OE for street use?

No. I don't what type of street driving you do but i do not need 4-pt harnesses on the street. 3-pt's are more than sufficient. On the track, I prefer a proper system with rollover protection and 5-6 pts with fixed back seats like i have in my track car. I don't think the compromise solutions work well one way or the other, hence why i have a track car and street car(s). If your an occasional track event attendee then stick to the stock setup.

[kishg]

Same reason here. I'm not happy enough with my mine to leave it and build off of, so I'm going to remove and start from scratch with a cage as soon as the funds are there.

agree. won't be building off it. full weld-in cage by either mcmahan or kalani. i plan to be trailering it by then to the track anyways. probably will put the bolt in in the m3 for occasional track days.

[JGood]

Fact:

"Most deaths on the road caused by roll over is due to partial ejection because lap and shoulder belts are not effective in securing the body in the seat in multiple impact situations."

Not because the top caves in...

Reading this from NHTSA report dated 1996 (specifically about SUV roll over fatality)

EDIT: See we're back to arguing again... I'll let it stop here... Not what the thread was about anyway.

Nice... Using SUV rollover stats on an e30 forum.

Light truck rollovers have the additional lethal consequence of increased occupant ejection. The risk of death for an occupant who is ejected is more than three times that of an occupant retained within the vehicle. Deaths due to ejection occur in over 20 percent of rollover crashes, a figure that is essentially unchanged since 1982. According to NHTSA, this is despite a tremendous increase over the past 15 years in seatbelt use, including a 35 percent rate use among fatally injured occupants. Major reasons for this tragic figure adduced by NHTSA are the higher rollover crash rates of light trucks, especially SUVs and pickups, the increased market share for this portion of the light vehicle fleet, and the higher rates of speeds of passenger vehicles preceding rollover crashes. There also appears to be an intrinsic difference in rollover dynamics for light trucks that results in more ejections when they rollover than when passenger cars rollover. This even includes an adjustment for the disparity in seat belt use rates between the two different classes of vehicles.

[DCColegrove]

I was too.

Explain to me what happens toy your head when your roof caves in when you are wearing a 4 point harness without rollover protection.

And what happens to your head with a 3 point system? The idea is that it will moves out of the way.

If you think your chances of survival in a frontal impact are so much greater that it offsets the fact that you likely will be crushed in a rollover, then by all means go right ahead and strap yourself in place.

I enjoy walking.

Fact:

"Most deaths on the road caused by roll over is due to partial ejection because lap and shoulder belts are not effective in securing the body in the seat in multiple impact situations."

Not because the top caves in...

Reading this from NHTSA report dated 1996 (specifically about SUV roll over fatality)

EDIT: See we're back to arguing again... I'll let it stop here... Not what the thread was about anyway.

[JGood]

I was addressing the Schroth vs factory 3pt question...

I was too.

Explain to me what happens toy your head when your roof caves in when you are wearing a 4 point harness without rollover protection.

And what happens to your head with a 3 point system? The idea is that it will moves out of the way.

If you think your chances of survival in a frontal impact are so much greater that it offsets the fact that you likely will be crushed in a rollover, then by all means go right ahead and strap yourself in place.

I enjoy walking.

[DCColegrove]

What do frontal impacts have to do with the car rolling and crushing your head and neck?

And those videos mean nothing to be. It doesn't specify if the test sled was traveling the same speed, hit the same object, same angle, same test dummy, etc... The video was made by someone with an interest in Schroth. Hell, they use the same marketing techniques you do! :p

I was addressing the Schroth vs factory 3pt question...

And yes... The cameras were placed only to demonstrate the belt system.
Very rarely will specific data be released for many reasons.

And yes... Marketing is marketing.

We could go around and around in circles for a long time.

[JGood]

What do frontal impacts have to do with the car rolling and crushing your head and neck?

And those videos mean nothing to be. It doesn't specify if the test sled was traveling the same speed, hit the same object, same angle, same test dummy, etc... The video was made by someone with an interest in Schroth. Hell, they use the same marketing techniques you do! :p

[DCColegrove]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_FhuSEaU8&NR=1 ASM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS6wo...eature=related vs 3 Point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHbwvYqq22s W/SRS

Just for grins