AutoX: To power steer or not to power steer?

[guibo09]

I wouldn't bet that they are the same. Those are euro parts... the euro M3 got the variable ratio rack, while the U.S. did not. Who knows what else might be the same or different...

the numbers work and make sense. forget the variable rack, it basically says all e36 steering racks are the same speed, except the M3 locks sooner (to clear larger wheels). this makes perfect sense, and also means M3 racks arent worth anything over standard ones.
z3 racks are fastest, and thats what's said often. that will be my purchase, if i can find an affordable one!

it's also the first time i see someone measure rack ratios properly, lock to lock is meaningless!

[xLibelle]

actually, i dont think thats far from the fact of whats available in the US, if infact there are different values - euro/us.

and thank you Guibo for the measurement comment. I laughed when L-L and total distance were provided and these guys STILL couldnt understand which rack was faster.

[JGood]

the numbers work and make sense. forget the variable rack, it basically says all e36 steering racks are the same speed, except the M3 locks sooner (to clear larger wheels). this makes perfect sense, and also means M3 racks arent worth anything over standard ones.
z3 racks are fastest, and thats what's said often. that will be my purchase, if i can find an affordable one!

it's also the first time i see someone measure rack ratios properly, lock to lock is meaningless!

What do you mean "the numbers work and make sense"?

I've seen data posted based on U.S. racks stating very different info from what is posted on those euro models. I've even seen data posted based on euro models that is different from the info you posted.

Example:

What chassis upgrades were made to the 3.2-liter E36 M3 compared to the 3.0-liter model?
-Quicker steering ratio (mean reduced from 17.6:1 to 15.6:1)

Also, this guy measured a US 95 M3 rack as 47mm/rev, a far way from the 39 mm/rev your source claimed. Again, it even specifically says it's the euro variable ratio rack, not sure why we would "forget that" fact.

Steering Rack Type
E30 M3 w/ 1995 E36 M3 rack

Rack Ratio (mm/rev)
47.0

Steering Ratio
14.9 : 1

[JGood]

Another thing. The stock e30 M3 is 38mm/rev. Your source claims 39mm/rev for a 95 M3. All of those people with e30 M3's who upgraded to 95 M3 racks and gave great reviews of quicker steering would be full of shit if that were true. I've driven stock e30 M3's, and I've driven my e30 with a 95 M3 rack. I can tell you they are nowhere CLOSE to the same ratio.

And all of the people that have upgraded their e36's to e36 M3 racks and gave great reviews would be full of shit as well. People who went to a 95 M3 rack actually would have downgraded significantly. Yeah, I don't think so...

[guibo09]

What do you mean "the numbers work and make sense"?

I've seen data posted based on U.S. racks stating very different info from what is posted on those euro models. I've even seen data posted based on euro models that is different from the info you posted.

Example:





Also, this guy measured a US 95 M3 rack as 47mm/rev, a far way from the 39 mm/rev your source claimed. Again, it even specifically says it's the euro variable ratio rack, not sure why we would "forget that" fact.

it's pretty clear that the US never got the variable rate rack, so instead they got the standard e36 rack throughout the years. 47mm/rev is pretty dam close to 45.5mm/rev, definitely within measurement error (not an easy measurement to make).

as for the other source stating a ratio change between the 3.0L and 3.2L, thats again comparing the variable vs standard.

i still dont see any indication that the numbers posted on the english forum are wrong...

e30, except M3 = ~37mm/rev
e36, regardless if M3 or not = ~46mm/rev (lock to lock varies)
z3 = ~54mm/rev

the only measurement you can use to directly compare between different cars is mm/rev, ratio in degrees is car specific and the same rack can produce different ratios in different cars.

[guibo09]

Another thing. The stock e30 M3 is 38mm/rev. Your source claims 39mm/rev for a 95 M3. All of those people with e30 M3's who upgraded to 95 M3 racks and gave great reviews of quicker steering would be full of shit if that were true. I've driven stock e30 M3's, and I've driven my e30 with a 95 M3 rack. I can tell you they are nowhere CLOSE to the same ratio.

And all of the people that have upgraded their e36's to e36 M3 racks and gave great reviews would be full of shit as well. People who went to a 95 M3 rack actually would have downgraded significantly. Yeah, I don't think so...

holy shit, i should have guessed that you had a 95 M3 rack that you probably paid alot for. you definitely have a chip on your shoulder or something!

do you have a variable rate rack? NO, so why would you even compare the ratio claimed for the variable rate rack? it's clear that you have the standard e36 rack at ~46 mm/rev, so you're rack IS an upgrade over any e30 rack. hope that helps you sleep at night.

[JGood]

it's pretty clear that the US never got the variable rate rack, so instead they got the standard e36 rack throughout the years. 47mm/rev is pretty dam close to 45.5mm/rev, definitely within measurement error (not an easy measurement to make).

as for the other source stating a ratio change between the 3.0L and 3.2L, thats again comparing the variable vs standard.

i still dont see any indication that the numbers posted on the english forum are wrong...

e30, except M3 = ~37mm/rev
e36, regardless if M3 or not = ~46mm/rev (lock to lock varies)
z3 = ~54mm/rev

the only measurement you can use to directly compare between different cars is mm/rev, ratio in degrees is car specific and the same rack can produce different ratios in different cars.

Well, thousands of people with e36's who upgraded to M racks for quicker steering wasted money then, I guess. And all of their claims that the steering was quicker after the swap are wrong.

I don't have any data written down. I have owned a standard e36 rack, a 96 M3 rack, and a 95 M3 rack though. I'll believe what I have experience with over some random document on the web for euro cars that may or may not apply to U.S. parts.

[JGood]

holy shit, i should have guessed that you had a 95 M3 rack that you probably paid alot for. you definitely have a chip on your shoulder or something!

do you have a variable rate rack? NO, so why would you even compare the ratio claimed for the variable rate rack? it's clear that you have the standard e36 rack at ~46 mm/rev, so you're rack IS an upgrade over any e30 rack. hope that helps you sleep at night.

I think you're reading my posts wrong dude... no hard feelings. I'm not worked up about this at all. It really has no effect on me as I already did the swap.

[guibo09]

I think you're reading my posts wrong dude... no hard feelings. I'm not worked up about this at all. It really has no effect on me as I already did the swap.

i apologise then, feelings arent so clear over the internet.

[guibo09]

so to clarify your experience, you claim a clear difference between e36 non-m3, 95 m3 and 96 m3?

[JGood]

so to clarify your experience, you claim a clear difference between e36 non-m3, 95 m3 and 96 m3?

Yeah. I never installed all of them in an e30 but I did a half-ass measurement while out of the car.

It went in order of quickest to slowest: 95 M3, 96 M3, non-M.

I suppose I could be wrong about where the racks came from, but they are tagged from the factory and all came from reputable sources.

[Miatamania]

We're talking about a 20 year old flexible chassis with bushings and relatively soft springs... I don't think the P/S is the bottleneck regarding feedback.

This is my view on the matter. When I swap to an E36 rack, I'm keeping my P/S.

It made a noticeable difference in the miata, but like I said, I've never been happy driving an E30 without it.

[z31maniac]

It went in order of quickest to slowest: 95 M3, 96 M3, non-M.

I thought all 96-99 M3 and 328 racks were the same? Guess I was wrong?

[JGood]

I thought all 96-99 M3 and 328 racks were the same? Guess I was wrong?

Possibly... I had an early e36 non-M rack. I'm thinking 92 or 93? That was a few years ago, I don't really remember. Who knows anyway, There's a member of this forum that had a stash of like 10-15 racks that were all date stamped that conflicted common belief and my findings. Maybe BMW just randomly pulled various racks out of a parts bin?

[Miatamania]

Maybe BMW just randomly pulled various racks out of a parts bin?

Its German, they like to do that sort of thing.