Megasquirt 3 vs WAR chip - HP gains on a NA motor -

[rcfanatic]

OK.. there has already been a thread written about MS v WAR and nando did a great job describing the general differences between them. However, it got hijacked and is about a year old.

My main issue in deciding which route to go is cost. MS3 I read in the other thread to be about $900 and the WAR chip is $350 plus I'll want to buy a wideband O2 with the WAR chip right? So that total cost will be more like $550 I'm guessing.

I have a NA higher compression M20 with headers and eventually will do intake.

In your opinion, in a NA motor, can you squeeze enough extra power out using MS3 to justify spending the extra $350, plus more time on your part to set it up?

[whodwho]

You don't need MS3 and there is probably a premium as it just released, MS2 has most everything you would need and even MS1 will get the job done. MS will give you future upgradeability and ease of tuning for changes along the way.

[MaksV]

ostrich 2.0 for tuning. you dont really need MS and at 185 for the ability to tune as much as you want with TunerPRO (great software) its a better option. But then you would also need to buy a MAF - but that should eb pretty cheap.

[rcfanatic]

ostrich 2.0 for tuning. you dont really need MS and at 185 for the ability to tune as much as you want with TunerPRO (great software) its a better option. But then you would also need to buy a MAF - but that should eb pretty cheap.

Is there somewhere that has E30 related support for ostrich? Couldn't find much on r3v

[digger]

for a stockish car i'd go warchip with MAF before any standalone.......

[DmcL]

ostrich is just the emulator that plugs into the ECU in place of the chip. the software (tunerpro) is what u would want to get to know ur way around. if using tunerpro/tunerpro RT and the ostrich emulator u can find bin definition files for 173 fairly easy on the net, also can find stock 173 bin files (whats on a 173 chip) easily also. there isnt as much of a "help" scene as the miller or MS stuff tho..

a wideband is a must nomatter what route u go and since u have a high comp engine u might run into knock when tuning ignition maps also, i havent run into knock on my low comp 2.5 and ive advanced timing quite a lot, i have advanced even to the point of power dropping with no knock but id say ur high comp motor will be knock limited so u might want to build a det can and hook that up when tuning also so u can listen out for knock.

[nando]

a MS3 kit is $365, not $900 (fully assembed is $540, but the kit only takes a day to put together). the MS3 extender is another $90 and that gives you full sequential fuel and spark plus more I/O than you will know what to do with. There's no "premium" for it either, that's just silly. :p

as far as what vs what, it doesn't really matter, there's not going to be a HP gain between two tuned ECUs, except that you can't run sequential with the war chip so you won't have the benefit of better fuel economy and overall smoothness. No datalogging either, no easy customization, etc. The flip side is it's easier to set up since you just plug it in. So it comes down to having a lot of power over your engine vs being easy enough for a 1st grader.

you already know what I think though..

[rcfanatic]

So including all the sensors it's only $365? Wow, yeah someone said 8-900 in the previous thread.

On the issue of a wideband o2 sensor, do you guys swap in the wideband when you want to do tuning or leave it in all the time (assuming it also has narrow band output)? The reason I ask is that I've looked at a bunch of them and none of them have mention of a heating element, unless it is just assumed

[nando]

no, not with sensors; you need a wideband, an IAT, and a TPS. The IAT and TPS are cheap, a wideband can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. And a wideband is going to be required either way. Still, with a wideband, the MS3, and the sequential board, there's no way it would be $900. Maybe if you bought everything prebuilt.

I leave my LC-1 in all the time, it has it's own heating element. It's powered using the stock O2 sensor relay & wiring.

you could also do MS2 to start with, and upgrade to the MS3 CPU later if you want. I wouldn't really suggest MS1 to anyone unless you're on a serious budget.

[jlevie]

In my opinion, a wide band O2 sensor isn't of much value for tuning unless you have data logging. To tune you need to see the A/F ratio over essentially the entire RPM band. With a means of logging RPM and A/F ratio you can make a "pull" in a single gear from about 2000rpm to the redline, plot the resuts and see where the tune can be improved. So on that basis, the MS has the edge over a WAR chip.

As far as power is concerned, I think an MS system has a slight edge over a WAR chip (or similar). But the results of either are going to be really close. I say that because the MS gives you total control over the behaviour of the engine management syste, which means that you don't have to fight the adaptive learning of the stock DME.

[rcfanatic]

In my opinion, a wide band O2 sensor isn't of much value for tuning unless you have data logging. To tune you need to see the A/F ratio over essentially the entire RPM band. With a means of logging RPM and A/F ratio you can make a "pull" in a single gear from about 2000rpm to the redline, plot the resuts and see where the tune can be improved. So on that basis, the MS has the edge over a WAR chip.

As far as power is concerned, I think an MS system has a slight edge over a WAR chip (or similar). But the results of either are going to be really close. I say that because the MS gives you total control over the behaviour of the engine management syste, which means that you don't have to fight the adaptive learning of the stock DME.

Thanks yeah I definitely wouldn't do it without a data acquisition system. Otherwise as you said it would be pretty much pointless. For this reason I was looking at the 14point7 SLC Pure Plus (formerly JAW, NAW), which comes with it's own datalogging software.

http://www.14point7.com/SLC-Pure-Plus.php

Just not sure if it comes with a built in heating element, thus requiring that I buy a second o2 sensor for dd'ing.

And that's a really interesting point about the conflict between a war chip and the adaptive nature of the stock DME.

[nando]

you could just use a stock narrowband for DD'ing, it's not a terrible idea actually, but most people don't want to swap sensors so they just leave in the WB all the time.

[rcfanatic]

you could just use a stock narrowband for DD'ing, it's not a terrible idea actually, but most people don't want to swap sensors so they just leave in the WB all the time.

Yeah but I don't want to pay an additional $140 or whatever to buy a stock narrowband for when I'm not tuning. Hopefully the SLC has the heating element and it's just not mentioned

[nando]

the heating element is usually built into the sensor, the WB controller just has to power it on.

[rcfanatic]

the heating element is usually built into the sensor, the WB controller just has to power it on.

Great news. Thanks guys. Anyone have the older style 4-prong O2 plug, so I don't have to hack up my harness?