Everyone is scared, everyone has guns.

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  • cale
    R3VLimited
    • Oct 2005
    • 2331

    #61
    Originally posted by dk
    said this elsewhere, but it bears repeating here.

    hypothetical: i have hostile intent, and an AR15.

    you need to worry about me and anyone within 500m of me (no concealment/cover assumed).

    take away my AR15 and give me a scoped hunting rifle (say, .30-06).

    now you need to worry about me and anyone within 1000m of me.

    good work?
    No, not good work. That is a terrible argument that assumes the average person is a good shot at 1000m which they most certainly are not. I say average person, because the most common gun related crime happens involving a few individuals and is nowhere near the scale of these mass shootings. Once you add up all those small scale cases you have a huge number which needs to be addressed. It also only applies to instances where AR's are the weapon of choice, which most gun crime does not involve. Pro-gun types are great at postulating wild scenario's which do not directly translate to real life so well, your's is a perfect example of this.

    Originally posted by mrsleeve
    You said it your self, we already have the regulations in place because society thinks we should be adults before you can buy something that requires a cretin level of maturity.

    Federal laws state you have to be 18 to buy long guns, and long guns ammo. 21 for handguns and ammo.

    We have laws that tell us what we can and cant have, how and where we can travel with them, where and when those of us that are licensed can carry and have them on our person. We have laws that bar felons, the mentally unfit, habitual users of mind altering substances etc... from obtaining, baring and keeping firearms . We have back ground checks for purchase, its illegal to sell to someone that you know or suspect fit of any of the above descriptions in a private party sale. Some states require federal and state paper work for private party pistol transfers

    We have 1000's of pages of Federal and state laws and regulation on firearms. Its not that we dont already have sufficient "common sense " gun laws we have since 1934, and have been expanded on several times since then 1968 and 86 at the federal level, the states have varying degrees of further regulation. CT has the 4th or 5th most restrictive gun laws in the country and look what just happened there. Kid not allowed to buy or possess steals mommies weapons and goes nuts
    And all of this explains what exactly? That guns and hammers are not one in the same, so stop calling a gun "just a tool". A tool it is yes, but the nature of its utility means it should not be so casually compared to something you use to build your house. And before you even say it, a nail gun is not a firearm. We're discussing firearms specifically.

    There were plenty of laws in place to prevent nearly all the media frenzy events in the past 15 years, but those pesky laws didnt stop them now did they. I fully endorse ENFORCING the laws we have, we have plenty of them especially in places like CT, we dont need more.
    There are, and have they worked? Nope, you even admit that. So what now, do we simply say "fuck it we tried" or do we continue trying to find a solution. Your stance of saying we already have enough laws tells me you're content with giving up and accepting that wacko's will always exist. I'm of the opinion that not having these types of weapons available so commonly will significantly curtail any individuals from using a weapon in a crime, and that prevalence of all firearms simply makes it too easy for someone with bad intentions to act on them. If everyone owned an M1 Abrams and they were used commonly in everyday crime, would you blame the individual driving or would you accept that hey, maybe it's fucking nuts to allow everyone to buy a tank at 18? You're justifying war time weaponry, simply on a smaller scale.

    You may claim that people with bad intentions will always find a way, and to some extent that is true. But real world findings show that in fact fewer guns does not result in more crime, it does not mean that the same number of people will pick up a knife and stab someone they'd otherwise shoot. Other countries have shown that guns are not necessary, yet you seem to prefer to assume the worst and keep on with this culture of living in fear and justifying adding to the problem.

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    • decay
      R3V Elite
      • Oct 2003
      • 5637

      #62
      Originally posted by cale
      Pro-gun types are great at postulating wild scenario's which do not directly translate to real life so well, your's is a perfect example of this.
      ORLY? because what i was talking about actually happened-



      it seems like in your fervor to spit out a vitriolic response, you missed my point.

      it's silly to say "hunting rifles are OK" and "assault weapons should be banned".

      It also only applies to instances where AR's are the weapon of choice, which most gun crime does not involve.
      in what way does it "only apply to those instances"? gun crime is gun crime- that is my whole point.

      you can draw all the fatuous rationalizations you want and say "well that's different because"; i am not obligated to share your delusion (and the fact that i think you're delusional means you're doing a terrible job of convincing me).
      past:
      1989 325is (learner shitbox)
      1986 325e (turbo dorito)
      1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
      1985 323i baur
      current:
      1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

      Comment

      • Vedubin01
        R3V Elite
        • Jun 2006
        • 5852

        #63
        Originally posted by cale
        Why, because I don't agree with you? Get off your fucking high horse you misinformed twat. I'm the liberal west coast hippy who could probably do a field strip and reassembly quicker than most AR owners, you don't know me personally so stick to the goddamn topic.

        Ok Private Pyle we believe you... keep playing your MW3





        Originally posted by dk

        it's silly to say "hunting rifles are OK" and "assault weapons should be banned".

        Its his lack of gun knowledge. Maybe some should watch this and learn something.




        Id just like him to answer, why in America in cities with the strictest gun laws (outright ban on firearms) have the highest gun crime rates in America?
        Build your own dreams, or someone else will hire you to build theirs!

        Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

        Comment

        • cale
          R3VLimited
          • Oct 2005
          • 2331

          #64
          Excellent job at relying on highly publicized cases to prove a point, the media has you scared into the position they want you apparently. How many gun crimes occur every year? It's the sum of those crimes which cause the biggest impact to society, and it's those instances which are resolvable.

          My point is guns should be reserved for utilitarian functions, and that one would not have a significant need for AR's and handguns in everyday life if they were not so common place. Sleeve has a CCW, does he have it simply because he feels safer with it or does he acknowledge that guns are so commonplace that a hostile interaction is likely to involve a firearm? My guess to his situation but more so to most CCW's is the latter, and if that's the case perhaps what needs addressing is not the impossible task of predicting crime and criminals before they happen but the ability for a criminal to perpetrate the act.

          Originally posted by Vedubin01
          Ok Private Pyle we believe you... keep playing your MW3
          Yup, that's definitely it. We train with call of duty in the military now, definitely no hands on experience whatsoever. I find it funny that you dismiss my arguments because of your misplaced assumptions, you're the epitome of ignorant.

          Originally posted by Vedubin01
          Id just like him to answer, why in America in cities with the strictest gun laws (outright ban on firearms) have the highest gun crime rates in America?
          Because your society holds guns as holy objects and they're as common as vehicles are. Your population as a whole refuses to give them up for fear of other firearms being used against them, so instead of finding a solution you dig in deeper, buy more guns and are shocked when gun crime occurs. You voluntarily allow the situation to get worse, strict gun laws need to exist coast to coast and people actually need to comply to see changes. But no one wants to, they all want their guns.

          Enjoy the situation you've created for yourself, needing to carry around a firearm in everyday life because of the shit storm you've added to. It all boils down to what the OP was getting at, guns are now casually thought of as a solution to a problem which exists solely because of the prevalence of guns! You're trying to fight fire with fire, at the end of the day something is still burning. One need only look at where the guns used in most crimes come from, they are purchased originally with the best intentions. Legal purchases and ownership spiral into criminal use.
          Last edited by cale; 12-16-2012, 12:12 PM.

          Comment

          • cale
            R3VLimited
            • Oct 2005
            • 2331

            #65
            Originally posted by mrsleeve

            Next you have dual citizen ship. If the US gun culture scares you so much, then go live in Canada. They have guns there too you know........
            It's true we do, so why is it that gun crime is so different between us then?

            Comment

            • Mr. Burns
              No R3VLimiter
              • Aug 2011
              • 3516

              #66
              And as predicted, some cowboys have made this a pissing contest over "cultures" and what's right and wrong.

              I can't negate, or be part of a discussion that is so fueled with rhetoric, and falsified "Joe Blow ccw permitted heroism" it's pointless on my part to continue.

              Good luck with whatever is going on in whatever city you live in. You're right, the rest on the living universe is wrong.

              Unreal some of you guys honestly man...
              Originally posted by flyboyx
              i have watched my dog lick himself off a few times

              Comment

              • Mr. Burns
                No R3VLimiter
                • Aug 2011
                • 3516

                #67
                And Cale....you'll go mute before your point is heard, yet a+ effort.
                Originally posted by flyboyx
                i have watched my dog lick himself off a few times

                Comment

                • 5Toes
                  Banned
                  • May 2010
                  • 9836

                  #68
                  Im not going to intervene, but this has been an excellent thread so far and I have never thought of it this way before. Thank you

                  Comment

                  • hooken m
                    E30 Mastermind
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 1537

                    #69
                    if im a buyer and seller wanted me to meet him at a police station parking lot, fuck would i care about. sure it would be a first, but some people can be paranoid or insecure w/e the fuck u wanna call it.
                    Originally posted by evandael
                    a car is a car. call it a dildo, i'd still drive the hell out of it.

                    Comment

                    • Farbin Kaiber
                      Lil' Puppet
                      • Jul 2007
                      • 29502

                      #70

                      Comment

                      • TurboJake
                        No R3VLimiter
                        • Oct 2010
                        • 3780

                        #71
                        Originally posted by cale
                        It's true we do, so why is it that gun crime is so different between us then?
                        Well, for one. Population will be a largely contributing factor. With more people comes more possibilities. Just like a machine, more parts put in means more parts to go bad.

                        According to Google.

                        Population of Canada: 34,482,779 as of 2011
                        Population of US: 311,591,917 as of Jul 2011

                        And I will also postulate that it's society as a whole. Which boils down to all stimuli that a child receives in their formative years.
                        It all starts with parenting.


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                        • Farbin Kaiber
                          Lil' Puppet
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 29502

                          #72
                          ^Be careful, I got into some stupid statistical percentage bullshit from relating differences in population.

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                          • cale
                            R3VLimited
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 2331

                            #73
                            It was stupid that comparing populations is done so via per capita?

                            Thanks to both of you for showing how well you've thought this through.
                            Originally posted by TurboJake
                            Well, for one. Population will be a largely contributing factor. With more people comes more possibilities. Just like a machine, more parts put in means more parts to go bad.

                            According to Google.

                            Population of Canada: 34,482,779 as of 2011
                            Population of US: 311,591,917 as of Jul 2011

                            And I will also postulate that it's society as a whole. Which boils down to all stimuli that a child receives in their formative years.
                            It all starts with parenting.
                            For the sake of the argument I'll concede that a much larger population does increase variables. However for most things the ratio's stay the same, the numbers are just bigger. This is not the case of gun violence, it is much more common in the US than other countries. It cannot be blamed on population, it's entirely because of how common guns are.
                            Last edited by cale; 12-16-2012, 02:11 PM.

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                            • TurboJake
                              No R3VLimiter
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 3780

                              #74
                              Originally posted by cale
                              It was stupid that comparing populations is done so via per capita?

                              Thanks to both of you for showing how well you've thought this through.


                              For the sake of the argument I'll concede that a much larger population does increase variables. However for most things the ratio's stay the same, the numbers are just bigger. This is not the case of gun violence, it is much more common in the US than other countries. It cannot be blamed on population, it's entirely because of how common guns are.
                              I really don't think you're reading exactly what I'm saying. It's not stupid to say that more variables introduce more problems. I'm not blaming it on population, just that it is a contributing factor. If you want to go per capita, going off of the a per 100,000 people. Many countries with much lower populations than Canada and the US have much higher firearm homicide rates. Countries that are developed. Countries such as Brazil, Mexico, and Jamaica. While having a much lower gun ownership rate. Which brings up my original point earlier in this thread that "saying it doesn't happen elsewhere is naive."

                              The ratio is not equal across the board globally. At all. Period.

                              What other contributing factors are there? Like I said, parenting and stimuli during formative years, media sensationalism, society's lack of accountability, money, prejudice/racism, power, the list goes on. Mostly things that prey on human nature.

                              Gun ownership rate has shown absolutely no correlation to homicide by said gun, globally.

                              And, the simple fact of the matter is. There are 300,000,000 guns in the US. And in 2009, there were 11,493 firearm related homicides. Yes, gun ownership is higher. Yes, we have some more firearm related homicides. But it is in no way correlated to gun ownership.

                              Sources:
                              Comprehensive and meticulously documented facts about gun control. Learn about ownership rates, crime, background checks, accidents, politics, and more.

                              FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.




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                              • VinniE30
                                R3VLimited
                                • May 2010
                                • 2113

                                #75
                                "Texas School District Will Let Teachers Carry Guns"


                                haha this is pretty awesome. Good for them. A complete 180 from all the people wanting more laws now after this shooting.
                                Zinno '89 <24v swap in progress>

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