Coil on plug or DIS setup?

[berlow94]

An S52 already has all that stuff setup, in the harness and factory ECU so its just build upon what the factory has done and tuning exercise and how much a hp or two matters to you. these days a good aftermarket ECU is pretty good, until recently they have been inferior to the OEM stuff except for accessibility.



what injectors are you running?

On the S52 I'm running 32# injectors.


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[nando]

More info on this?

What are you using for engine management?
What kind of coils are those?
Assuming you made the coil mount yourself?
Are you utilizing a cam sensor and running fully sequential fueling and spark?

I guess I never directly answered this

MS3 + MS3x

GM D585 - from an LSx truck motor. I think I paid something like $100 for the set of 8.

yes, I made it myself.

Yes, I'm using an M54 cam sensor, with a single tooth for activation (all it's used for is determining intake vs exhaust stroke).

[berlow94]

I have a MS2V3 laying around that PFTuning configured for me.
Try to decide whether or not to sell it or install it.

Nando, where did you get that AFM delete plate?
I want to use the stock airbox but will obviously get rid of the AFM if i do install the MS.

[nando]

it's an old ebay cone filter adapter for the AFM that I modified in reverse to bolt up to the airbox.

[atmh]

nando -still running coil on plug? I like your setup as pictured above for my turbo build, since it gets the coils away from the manifold area. It's been 6 years since the last post, so any lessons learned in that time? Did you make your own cam position sensor mount and toning wheel?

I'm building my m20 for MS3 full sequential/individual cylinder trim. My experience with data acquisition in the past indicates that you don't get big gains until you do *all* the upgrades: individual fuel/spark control + knock sensor at a minimum, with bigger gains from individual o2 and egt. The benefit really is only there when the ECU can automatically adjust each cylinder on the fly.

It will be a long time before I have the full setup, but the coil on plug setup needs to be in place when I switch from my current MS1 v2.2 to MS3, which I'm planning on doing this summer.

[JehTehsus]

nando -still running coil on plug? I like your setup as pictured above for my turbo build, since it gets the coils away from the manifold area. It's been 6 years since the last post, so any lessons learned in that time? Did you make your own cam position sensor mount and toning wheel?

I'm building my m20 for MS3 full sequential/individual cylinder trim. My experience with data acquisition in the past indicates that you don't get big gains until you do *all* the upgrades: individual fuel/spark control + knock sensor at a minimum, with bigger gains from individual o2 and egt. The benefit really is only there when the ECU can automatically adjust each cylinder on the fly.

It will be a long time before I have the full setup, but the coil on plug setup needs to be in place when I switch from my current MS1 v2.2 to MS3, which I'm planning on doing this summer.

I ended up installing my six coils in the battery tray. They sit on a 3d printed (ABS) bracket which has suffered no deformation at all over the last few thousand kms, so it isn't getting too hot right there. Likely cooler than the valve cover even.

This may change when I install a turbo manifold, but it does seem to work well.

[e30davie]

yer i dont think the battery tray gets too warm. I have 6x ls1 coils in the battery tray as well (megasquirt 2 wasted spark). its not the neatest solution and id be tempted to go for the coil on plug route, but then having a nice clean rocker cover is nice....but then i do like the hartage one on the previous page, but ls1 coils were cheap and have worked fine for years. I do need to make some custom length spark plug leads though...

[digger]

nando -still running coil on plug? I like your setup as pictured above for my turbo build, since it gets the coils away from the manifold area. It's been 6 years since the last post, so any lessons learned in that time? Did you make your own cam position sensor mount and toning wheel?

I'm building my m20 for MS3 full sequential/individual cylinder trim. My experience with data acquisition in the past indicates that you don't get big gains until you do *all* the upgrades: individual fuel/spark control + knock sensor at a minimum, with bigger gains from individual o2 and egt. The benefit really is only there when the ECU can automatically adjust each cylinder on the fly.

It will be a long time before I have the full setup, but the coil on plug setup needs to be in place when I switch from my current MS1 v2.2 to MS3, which I'm planning on doing this summer.

the gains from tuning fuel and timing on each cylinder individually are actually very small 1% or so and IMO not worth the cost or effort from a output perspective except at a professional motorsport level. The main benefit is reducing likelihood of a failure which really only becomes important as the power level goes up.

[atmh]

JehTehsus - what coils are you running?
e30davie - I agree the Hartge pic looks pretty great - the custom COP bracket really blended well with that valve cover. TBH I think pretty engine bays are awesome and impressive and I like looking at them, but I'm not motivated by cosmetics. My engine bay will be all utility, and that big empty space above the valve cover is a great place for coils. Most coils live on cylinder heads anyways, so I'm not worried about temps. Not sure what I'll be doing with the battery tray area (I have a trunk battery already) - was thinking of just cutting it back to make space for a 4" downpipe...
digger - I 100% agree with everything you said. I'm not looking for power gains directly from individual cylinder control, I'm looking for two things you already mentioned: Safety (preventing and/or responding to detonation, in particular) at high power levels (22psi of boost), plus the one you didn't: Improved emissions at idle/low rpm, and perhaps even high RPM/high load, if I can keep the AFRs in a better place from an emissions standpoint.

For some background because this topic gets a lot of flack of "why would you do that?" and "it's so much effort for so little gain" let me just give a quick background: Since I'm going to be running high boost, I need to do at least wasted spark DIS. Since a cam sensor provides tangible benefits, I'm doing that, too. MS3 natively supports individual coils (up to 12?) so given everything else there's not that much extra work to do COP vs. DIS (if you're running MS3 with a cam sensor, which I will be.) At the end of the day I think both DIS or COP is arguably little to no benefit one vs. the other, but also the work involved is marginal for one vs. the other. The costs may also be pretty comparable. The deciding factor for me may be simple and silly: COP seems more widely adopted by OEMs, and ever so slightly cooler than wasted spark DIS. The most tangible reason to need it (high RPM / longer dwell) is not part of my build plan since I'm maintaining stock redline.

To be honest, my current build with 14.7psi of boost, MS1 v2.2 and the stock distributor is fine. Drives great. Plenty of power. It's not really about that anymore. I'm not updating my e30 build because it's easy. I'm doing it because it's a challenge, and I want to build something beautiful.

[JehTehsus]

JehTehsus - what coils are you running?
e30davie - I agree the Hartge pic looks pretty great - the custom COP bracket really blended well with that valve cover. TBH I think pretty engine bays are awesome and impressive and I like looking at them, but I'm not motivated by cosmetics. My engine bay will be all utility, and that big empty space above the valve cover is a great place for coils. Most coils live on cylinder heads anyways, so I'm not worried about temps. Not sure what I'll be doing with the battery tray area (I have a trunk battery already) - was thinking of just cutting it back to make space for a 4" downpipe...
digger - I 100% agree with everything you said. I'm not looking for power gains directly from individual cylinder control, I'm looking for two things you already mentioned: Safety (preventing and/or responding to detonation, in particular) at high power levels (22psi of boost), plus the one you didn't: Improved emissions at idle/low rpm, and perhaps even high RPM/high load, if I can keep the AFRs in a better place from an emissions standpoint.

For some background because this topic gets a lot of flack of "why would you do that?" and "it's so much effort for so little gain" let me just give a quick background: Since I'm going to be running high boost, I need to do at least wasted spark DIS. Since a cam sensor provides tangible benefits, I'm doing that, too. MS3 natively supports individual coils (up to 12?) so given everything else there's not that much extra work to do COP vs. DIS (if you're running MS3 with a cam sensor, which I will be.) At the end of the day I think both DIS or COP is arguably little to no benefit one vs. the other, but also the work involved is marginal for one vs. the other. The costs may also be pretty comparable. The deciding factor for me may be simple and silly: COP seems more widely adopted by OEMs, and ever so slightly cooler than wasted spark DIS. The most tangible reason to need it (high RPM / longer dwell) is not part of my build plan since I'm maintaining stock redline.

To be honest, my current build with 14.7psi of boost, MS1 v2.2 and the stock distributor is fine. Drives great. Plenty of power. It's not really about that anymore. I'm not updating my e30 build because it's easy. I'm doing it because it's a challenge, and I want to build something beautiful.

I am running 6 DIY IGN 1A smart coils, controlled by an MS3 ultimate.

Some pictures of where it is at right now to give you a rough idea. I have redesigned the plate but am waiting on some free time to install the new and improved version:

[nando]

nando -still running coil on plug? I like your setup as pictured above for my turbo build, since it gets the coils away from the manifold area. It's been 6 years since the last post, so any lessons learned in that time? Did you make your own cam position sensor mount and toning wheel?

I'm building my m20 for MS3 full sequential/individual cylinder trim. My experience with data acquisition in the past indicates that you don't get big gains until you do *all* the upgrades: individual fuel/spark control + knock sensor at a minimum, with bigger gains from individual o2 and egt. The benefit really is only there when the ECU can automatically adjust each cylinder on the fly.

It will be a long time before I have the full setup, but the coil on plug setup needs to be in place when I switch from my current MS1 v2.2 to MS3, which I'm planning on doing this summer.

Yep. I literally haven't touched it since the day I put it in. That was.. 11 years ago now. So I guess you can say it's pretty reliable. :p

it's funny because I remember back in the day people talking about how shitty Megasquirt was, it's not a real standalone, it's cheap, it'll never last or run right. But all those people are long gone now, though.

[nando]

the gains from tuning fuel and timing on each cylinder individually are actually very small 1% or so and IMO not worth the cost or effort from a output perspective except at a professional motorsport level. The main benefit is reducing likelihood of a failure which really only becomes important as the power level goes up.

Performance gains are pretty small, but yeah, the GM D585 coils and solid state everything absolutely outclasses the stock ignition system by a million miles.

[atmh]

Yep. I literally haven't touched it since the day I put it in. That was.. 11 years ago now. So I guess you can say it's pretty reliable. :p

it's funny because I remember back in the day people talking about how shitty Megasquirt was, it's not a real standalone, it's cheap, it'll never last or run right. But all those people are long gone now, though.

You're telling me! I installed megasquirt 1 v2.2 when I had no idea WTF I was doing in 2006, drove it for about 40k miles, half of which with a turbo, parked it for 11 years, leaving it totally untouched. This past summer the darn thing fired right up like it was parked yesterday when I tried cranking it just to see if it would turn over (I pulled the fuel pump fuse because I didn't actually want to start it - didn't matter, still had fuel pressure in the fuel rail and fired up and idled for a few seconds).

Granted, my car isn't running great right now, got all kinds of weird gremlins from sitting for so long, but it does run on a 17 year old megasquirt box having done nothing more than change the oil and fuel. The only issue I've had is the BIP373 coil driver was intermittently grounding out on the case. Just needed to fix the insulator and it's been good since then. I'm sure MS3 is light-years better.

Seems like the LSx coil setup is a good and cost effective way to go, and get the coils away from the exhaust manifold. I'll probably go this route, or at least something very similar.

[nando]

These days it would be pretty easy to get some brackets laser cut or something. No need for a hacksaw and a grinder. :p

[atmh]

These days it would be pretty easy to get some brackets laser cut or something. No need for a hacksaw and a grinder. :p

Yep, I'm going to CAD it up and try out Send Cut Send. I'm a mechanical engineer, so custom brackets and stuff like that are right up my my wheelhouse. :)