Who is running a potent N/A set up?

[nando]

And?

I've put considerable time & effort into the m20, not sure what you meant by that?

I was pointing out that its silly to talk about 300bhp m20s. If you had the capital and knowledge to do so, you probably wouldnt be in this thread. 200-240 is doable for us mortals, if you'd like to discuss that instead of adding to your post count..

[digger]

Why does every thread involving N/A M20 power dissolve into ramblings involving M5x/S5x? Apples to oranges, different strokes for different folks, so on and so forth.

Maybe I'm jaded, but lets keep this on track.

Here's an extrudabody setup being done by a customer in Australia, being stroked right now, so no news on actual HP.


Here's another Aussi customer running S54 ITB's, was at 230 to the wheels, but motor is back apart in search of a few more hidden ponies at the moment.


Another customer on Crete is claiming more but I haven't seen proof yet. In many cases America is in need of some serious catchup in when compared to many found in Northern Europe and Down Under.

Another pic I found but did not take...

Slide throttle injection anyone?

ditching the S54 throttles would help.......the S54 can handle 400+bhp with ease and i don't think this is the target on a M20 so clearly too large.

[digger]

while I think it may be physically possible to get 300+ HP out of an N/A M20, it's not reallly worth talking about - it would probably cost 10x as much as an S54 swap, and not live long, and really not much of the original engine would be left anyway.

which is also why I think these conversations always end up at the inevitable "24v" discussion.

not really IMO, 190CFM @28" is all you need from the head for 300bhp at 7500rpm, the rest mostly comes down to camshaft and manifolds and these days there is plenty of software to get in the ballpark first time....... few people seem to match components well and don't do the engineering calculations (i am guilty of this) particulary the ones regarding CSA of ports, and runners which determine velocity and is ultra critical for pushing the envelope. The CSA always seem smaller than what people think.

[Wanganstyle]

not really IMO, 190CFM @28" is all you need from the head for 300bhp at 7500rpm, the rest mostly comes down to camshaft and manifolds and these days there is plenty of software to get in the ballpark first time....... few people seem to match components well and don't do the engineering calculations (i am guilty of this) particulary the ones regarding CSA of ports, and runners which determine velocity and is ultra critical for pushing the envelope. The CSA always seem smaller than what people think.

what do you think a street life (20,000 miles to rebuild from 0) 300hp M20 would be / cost - do you think it is feasible?

[richardkeith97]

do a 2.7i clutch fan delete with a maf and war chip. 272 cam and headers and 4.10 dif. simple and reliable. would easily eat a stock m20 and probably a m50 e36 or e30. thats what i'm working on now. you can do this easily if you get a seta motor. theyre cheap and you have a great motor for a turbo in the future.

[digger]

what do you think a street life (20,000 miles to rebuild from 0) 300hp M20 would be / cost - do you think it is feasible?

main things to consider ontop of a standard rebuild are

head port work $500-1000 varies alot
camshaft $500
oversize valves $600
uprated rockers $500
uprated valve springs $400
Tuned Headers $1000
Short runner intake setup and plenum (i.e itb setup) $1000-2000
ECU and tuning $1000
Pistons $1000
Crank $300
Rods $400

so atleast $8k ontop of standard rebuild, some parts can be had for cheaper but others may cost more so its a ballpark number. So who wants to play?

[Kershaw]

"speed is money. how fast can you afford to go?"

[SkiFree]

ditching the S54 throttles would help.......the S54 can handle 400+bhp with ease and i don't think this is the target on a M20 so clearly too large.

It's easy to dismiss that or contradict it on a forum, however he had the setup running pretty well before having some non intake related issues.

In fact you guys are probably not that far away from each other, if you'd like his contact info feel free to PM me.



Nando - We're on the same page. I agree it's a little much to talk about 300hp, it's just forum brohaha. I'd definitely like to talk about more realistic numbers as well.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to increase post count, is that supposed to mean one knows more?

[Wanganstyle]

main things to consider ontop of a standard rebuild are


ECU and tuning $1000 - this is nothing close to budget to actually get power+reliability
Pistons $1000 - not enough. would need something really light and custom for 100hp/L
Crank $300 -not enough. which crank is $300 and good enough for 100hp/L on 12v?

S52b32 has trouble getting to 300hp NA (it does not unless high dollar fully built).
S54b32 is a crank worthy of 8,400rpm and over 300rwhp stock engine pump piss 91 octane- but it is not a $300 crank.

Rods $400 - you cannot buy S54b32 oem secondhand rods for $400 (I dont think they can be used in a M20 at all), what rods are similar quality aftermarket or oem for that price ($400)????

so atleast $8k ontop of standard rebuild, some parts can be had for cheaper but others may cost more so its a ballpark number. So who wants to play?

Is that all?? it seems more is required, I have a full alpina 2.7 in my car currently with some more work done and I'm not even more than 200rwhp.

I have also had an S54 in my own car, it was over 300rwhp un-opened :)

I can fit the S54 throttles on the M20 and use S54 wiring harness I have for DTA S100 and tune the M20. But I wont be getting anywhere close to 300 for that.

what is the highest rwhp NA M20 12v you have seen dyno?


I think a M20 would need a non jackshaft drive wet sump oiling system and some exotic head (ala racing dynamic 24v conversion, or similar to make 300 hp NA and still live 20,000 miles)

how high can you push the compression on one of these things anyways? the s54 has huge cut outs in pistons. kinda silly looking

if looking at Honda's and high speed high power SOHC engines, the bisimoto' drag engines seem to be using injectors on standoffs directly firing into the open ITB. I have no ideal the math behind this, but did see the 2003 ferrari v10 F1 engine with similar standoff style injectors directly injecting into the throttle bodies. (in open atmosphere or in an accumulator)

90~100hp/liter if doing this 12v ~ 3000cc-3200cc maxed out stroke/....this is oem S54 land.

[digger]

i dont think thats all. i think more is required, i have a full alpina 2.7 in my car currently with some more work done and I'm not even more than 200rwhp.

I have also had an S54 in my own car, it was over 300rwhp un-opened :)

I can fit the S54 throttles on the M20 and use S54 wiring harness I have for DTA S100 and tune the M20. But I wont be getting anywhere close to 300 for that.

what is the highest rwhp NA M20 12v you have seen dyno?


I think a M20 would need a non jackshaft drive wet sump oiling system and some exotic head (ala racing dynamic 24v conversion, or similar to make 300 hp NA and still live 20,000 miles)

how high can you push the compression on one of these things anyways? the s54 has huge cut outs in pistons. kinda silly looking

if looking at Honda's and high speed high power SOHC engines, the bisimoto' drag engines seem to be using injectors on standoffs directly firing into the open ITB. I have no ideal the math behind this, but did see the 2003 ferrari v10 F1 engine with similar standoff style injectors directly injecting into the throttle bodies. (in open atmosphere or in an accumulator)

90~100hp/liter if doing this 12v ~ 3000cc-3200cc maxed out stroke/....this is oem S54 land.

What people don't seem to understand is you don't need massive improvements in the head to make alot of hp. You need the correct velocity in the inlet runners, ports, exhaust pipes matched to correct cam timing. You need to have specific targets in mind and then build to suit.

[richardkeith97]

seriously a 2.7i is the best bang for your back for a n/a m20. with good tuning and a maf you can keep up with an m50 for less money. turbo and you can keep up with an s50 for less money and a lot less hassle

[LJ851]

if looking at Honda's and high speed high power SOHC engines, the bisimoto' drag engines seem to be using injectors on standoffs directly firing into the open ITB. I have no ideal the math behind this, but did see the 2003 ferrari v10 F1 engine with similar standoff style injectors directly injecting into the throttle bodies. (in open atmosphere or in an accumulator)

Ducati has been doing this (shower injectors) on street bikes since 2000.

Also, Alpina street engines are very mild builds designed to last a long time.

I haven't spoken to Paul Burke about M20 engines in particular, but he is a guy that would have a pretty good grasp the potential HP numbers.

[devon.818]

last e30 i had was damn fun.
272 cam, fresh head on the m20, miller MAF, chip, 17# injectors, kamotors intake, straight pipes.

it pulled a 07 is350 on the freeway up to 130, and i still help half a car lol.

[acolella76]

seriously a 2.7i is the best bang for your back for a n/a m20. with good tuning and a maf you can keep up with an m50 for less money. turbo and you can keep up with an s50 for less money and a lot less hassle

keep up with an s50? unless you have a small turbo or a ton of leaks you should be able to walk an s50

[SkiFree]

.

I haven't spoken to Paul Burke about M20 engines in particular, but he is a guy that would have a pretty good grasp the potential HP numbers.

While he is one such individual, there are plenty more who would also be good to talk to (though they wouldn't necessarily be on any forum).